The Entry Level Stax Thread
Aug 18, 2013 at 9:39 PM Post #136 of 3,322
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So my friend has already moved on to the 4170 a month after starting off with the 2170 
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  Deadly it is, this Stax bug.

Indeed, Part of me wishes I started off with entry level Stax to have an idea of what they sound like to have an idea of where they stand compared to similar priced dynamics/orthos. I only know what a few of them sound like in the SR007 MK1, MK2.5 and the SR009. 
 
Aug 18, 2013 at 10:33 PM Post #137 of 3,322
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Why is it that an amp like the O2 measuring well doesn't sound amazing? The answer must be found in the minuscule amount if distortion, am I right? Alternatively, I guess it would have something to do with stuff we can't measure.
Above is assuming you strive for transparency and neutrality.

I think it's been mentioned before but when you have measured THD levels below like 0.1% it is not audible so anything with extra added zero's is pretty much pointless, in this case all nwavguy did was use a useless measurement benchmark to determine how and what the O2 was going to be/designed to like. He pretty much disregarded everything else and went for the lowest THD distortion % possible.
 
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I also tried out an SR-Gamma, and imbalance aside, I did find its overall sound signature pretty likeable...but the real deal-killer for me, more than anything else, was the comfort-or lack thereof. The earpads are just way too shallow to keep my earlobes/pinnae from touching the inside of the cup, and that gets very uncomfortable, very fast.
 

Hey PFG haven't seen you in a while :D
 
Indeed the Gamma's are great (and the Pro-bias quite rare), the comfort can be an annoyance to some, but they are very great sounding once you got the fit right. Speaking of which if you wanted a Gamma you could've asked me, sold one for $150 little over a week ago NOS with original box.
 
As with the SR-X MK2, skip the MK2 as they offer nothing special to the table, and aim for the MK3's.
 
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I'm going to be sticking to the SRS-2170 for a while. I might get the upcoming Alpha Dog to complete my headphone arsenal...
 

Why not the Paradox? That is pretty much near a perfect flat line measured headphone modded by LFF.
 
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I haven't touched the Alpha Dog yet, so I can't say if it's trusty or not.
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Well since the O2 was blind tested against the DAC1 PRE and no audible difference was heard, you're implying that the DAC1 PRE is bloody horrible too. I guess those awards must have been for the best worst product of the year.

The DAC1 Pre headphone out is pretty bad. It's DAC output is good but the headphone out is a disappointment. 
 
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Wow, I can't believe someone actually paid $320 for an untested, beat-up SR-Lambda.
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Yeah bit risky on whoever bought those, bit overpriced as well if they are beat-up.
 
Aug 18, 2013 at 11:21 PM Post #138 of 3,322
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I saw a listing for an untested set of normal bias lambdas with a snapped headband just go for $147.50.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231030461020?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
 
A set of replacement pads and replacement headband from Stax USA would set you back another $200-$250 or so depending on whether you use the basic or SR-507 pads. Looks like what NamelessPFG paid is about the going rate. 

 
If I had caught that one, I might have gone for it for an extra set of working drivers...but the snapped headband/arc is a big problem.
 
STAX USA/Yama's Enterprises only sells the newer Nova/Numerical arc design. It's possible to mount those on a vintage Lambda, but you have to remove these studs on the earcup holes first. Even then, I don't like the higher clamping force that new arc brings.
 
Most SR-Lambdas I've seen in complete and working order go for $250-300, usually not with transformer boxes. Looking at it that way, $320 for one with an SRD-6 isn't so bad if everything works...but still a bit higher that I'd like, especially seeing as I don't need the SRD-6.
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 1:10 AM Post #139 of 3,322
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I'm going to be sticking to the SRS-2170 for a while. I might get the upcoming Alpha Dog to complete my headphone arsenal...
 

Why not the Paradox? That is pretty much near a perfect flat line measured headphone modded by LFF.

Because of these:
 
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Re-read my earlier post and find keyword "rubbery" in reference to other T50RP mods which use the stock enclosure.
 
Also the Paradox is a bit more mellow in the upper mids than the AD. The AD more neutral as in UERM, Yamaha NS10, studio monitor neutral.

 
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What do you mean ? Because considering your own graphs about the paradox it would be hard to make a more neutral headphone

 
I was speaking in relative terms comparing both headphones using my ears since I don't have measurements of the AD; and also since I generally don't like to post measurements here much anymore because folks on HF tend to get weirded out over them, take them too seriously, don't understand that they are but one of many tools, or use them selectively to make odd arguments.
 
BTW, measurement of latest Paradox iteration (using revised methodology / new measurement rig which I will be using going forward):

 
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So... now on to impressions/mini-review:
 
Build Quality:
 
Dan kept assuring me that these are pre-production units, and that the final products will be even more solid. But I could have sworn I could wear a pair to World War 3 and come back without a scratch. They are extremely solid, and very well-built as is. If Dan was selling them at the show, I would have paid for a pair immediately.
 
I think the Alpha Dogs are among the most solidly built headphones I have ever held in my hands. They did not feel like a headphone put together with parts from other headphones. They felt like a completely new product.
 
Comfort and isolation:
 
I don't think anyone can claim that the Mad Dogs are uncomfortable. But somehow, I thought the Alpha Dogs were even more comfortable than the Mad Dogs. I felt that clamping force, how big the ear pads are, how they push against your ears, etc... were calculated very meticulously. They achieved as perfect a seal as possible. They couldn't completely drown out ambient noise, but they did an amazingly good job considering. I think only active noise canceling can do better.
 
Sound quality:
 
Haha, here's the juicy part. I did write that these sounded "unbelievable", right? I meant that in a good way.
 
Test setup is as pictured. Burson Conductor or Schiit Lyr and Bifrost were the primary sources here. Dan wasn't cheating with $2000+ amplifiers. You can get amazingly good sound out of the Alpha Dogs with a <$1000 setup.
 
But if I just did a plain listening test, then it wouldn't be cool. So Wolfetan44 helped me out. He and I brought our own headphones over for a bit of fun. Paradox T50RP and Audio Technica ATH-W1000X.
 
Please note that the ATH-W1000X is very close to my personal reference sound signature because I modded it, and I'm very familiar with it, so it'd be an unfair comparison for the Alpha Dogs just on that point alone.
 
How did the Alpha Dogs fare against those 2 headphones?
 
Pink Floyd's Money - Dark Side Of the Moon (HD quality): this was one of the tracks that Dan had on his computer. I have heard this song probably no less than 100 times. And I have heard it out of a lot of headphones. Up to and including the SR-009 and Abyss.
 
Paradox T50RP: a bit narrow and claustrophobic to my ears, but good clarity, good details, and very good depth and layering ability. Despite having smaller soundstage than the other 2 headphones, this one held its own.
 
ATH-W1000X (modded): expansive and very good soundstaging, very good depth, layering, details. Like I said, it's very close to my reference sound signature, so almost nothing is lacking to my ears. If upper midrange was a bit more subdued, it'd be perfect.
 
Alpha Dogs: surprisingly, soundstage is almost as big as the W1000X. Details are a bit more subdued than the other 2 headphones to my ears, but smoother than Paradox. If my W1000X was at stock, I'm sure the Alpha Dogs would decimate them. As is, I think the Alpha Dogs is a better value than the W1000X just because you don't have to fiddle with mods and so on to get them to sound right.
 
Eric Clapton's Lonely Stranger - Unplugged: this was my own music. I couldn't find this track on Dan's computer, but he allowed me to load my own music. So I went to town with the "authority" that was just granted to me. (sorry, Dan! I couldn't resist it!)
 
Paradox T50RP: being that this is a live recording, the Paradox did a good job with instrument separation and layering. Details were simply amazing. However, there was still that claustrophobic feel. Midrange was fairly good, but not as liquid as the other 2 headphones.
 
ATH-W1000X (modded): huge soundstage. It sounded like I was sitting there on the stage. Midrange was a tad more forward than the other 2 headphones, so it was quite weird... given that the soundstage was so huge. Otherwise, very good details, very good midrange presentation, and overall very pleasing.
 
Alpha Dogs: soundstage a bit lacking compared to W1000X. But. But. BUT. Okay... BUT the overall presentation was more pleasing and natural than the W1000X. Why? Because of that midrange emphasis on the W1000X. ADs don't have that midrange emphasis, so they sounded more natural. The presentation is obviously more colored with the W1000X. ADs presented a far more natural and linear presentation. Even though I said that the W1000X was closer to my reference sound signature, I was leaning toward Alpha Dogs with this song. That's a huge feat for the Alpha Dogs.
 
E.S. Posthumus' Ebla - Unearthed: this was also my own music. This track was solely there to test imaging and soundstage performance.
 
Paradox T50RP: again that claustrophobic feel. I think soundstage is inherently a weakness with this headphone. Though the layering ability was just amazing. I also loved how details were rendered.
 
ATH-W1000X (modded): crazy expansive soundstage. Unnaturally big. I'd only heard bigger soundstage from 2 headphones... the ATH-AD2000X and Sennheiser HD800. Due to the midrange emphasis, imaging was spot on, and I could almost pick out individual voices in the choir. This was probably an unfair fight for the other 2 headphones, or so I thought until I heard the Alpha Dogs.
 
Alpha Dogs: very good expansive soundstage. Not as big as the W1000X, but again, more coherent. There wasn't that much of a midrange emphasis, so vocals took a backseat, but it made the soundstage more natural. I didn't expect to, but I think I enjoyed the Alpha Dogs a lot with this song. Best of all, I remembered there was a cavernous feel to the soundstage when I was listening to this track with the Mad Dogs. There was no cavern with the Alpha Dogs. They sounded truly like "soundstage" of an open-backed pair of cans.
 
E.S. Posthumus' Nara - Unearthed: the next track in the same album. I often used this track to test bass performance.
 
Paradox T50RP: soundstage notwithstanding (I don't think I need to keep whining anymore), bass was pretty well-rendered. I could use a little bit more of it, but it sounded pretty good to my ears with this headphone. And it never bled into the midrange. However, due to the soundstage, bass felt a little more... one-directional. Like it came from just one source instead of multiple.
 
ATH-W1000X (modded): directional information is recreated very well. I could clearly hear where bass is coming from, and whether it was from a small or big drum. However, it felt like sub bass rumble could be a little bit more pronounced.
 
Alpha Dogs: surprisingly, again, these came out on top in a track that I didn't expect them to. Impact was lacking compared to the W1000X, but bass sounded very linear. Sub bass rumble was well on par with the rest of the frequency response, and soundstage was just lacking a tiny bit behind the W1000X. Needless to say, that means they were better to me than the Paradox.
 
Overall, I'd say the Alpha Dogs was the most well-rounded of the three headphones mentioned, despite the fact that I own and really like one of the two that I compared the Alpha Dogs to.
 
If I have to pick a headphone out of the three, the Alpha Dogs would be the obvious decision. It was more comfortable than the other 2 headphones, it isolated far better than my W1000X (the W1000X is actually semi-open rather than fully closed like the Alpha Dogs), and I wouldn't have to apply any further modification for them to sound great.
 
And yeah, that was how the Alpha Dogs sounded unbelievable to my ears. I came into the review expecting them not to be able to measure up to my W1000X, which... if I have to add, I do prefer over the HD800, LCD-2, HE-500, and TH900. No joke. All 4 of those headphones were available at the meet for me to demo and compare, so it wasn't like I just pulled that out of nowhere.
 
I think the Alpha Dogs are clearly the best closed headphone under $1000. Bar none. And that's because the TH900 exists. And technically, I think the TH900 does have slightly better imaging compared to the Alpha Dogs. Just like how my W1000X can still beat out Alpha Dogs at certain things.
 
But... this is a big but... the Alpha Dogs is priced at $599. The TH900 new is $1499 even after the recent price drop. You're paying more than twice the price tag for something like a 5% improvement.
 
My modded W1000X is probably a better competition at around $499, but... I put in multiple hours tuning the sound, the ear pads were swapped (the L3000 ear pads are like $100 a pair!), and I had to put in a lot of things afterward (felt, dynamat extreme, etc...). The actual value of that W1000X is close to $800 - $900 not even considering the hours I spent trying out different things that didn't work, and I don't think I can replicate a second pair that's even close to that. And even after all that, it's still not as comfortable as the Alpha Dogs, nor does it isolate as well as the Alpha Dogs.
 
Additional note: after hearing the closed-back Audeze prototype, I still maintain the above sentiment... that the Alpha Dogs are the best closed headphone under $1000. But that's not because I know anything else about the prototype (other than how it sounds like), but because I think the Alpha Dogs still offers something unique for the money.

 
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HERES A GOOD QUESTION! Does the alpha dog outperform the Thunderpants????

 
Yes....  IMO they outperformed the following:
 
Thunderpants
Paradox
Mad Dogs
BMF's
 
All Fostex T50RP mods I've owned.

 
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 3:38 AM Post #140 of 3,322
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If I had caught that one, I might have gone for it for an extra set of working drivers...but the snapped headband/arc is a big problem.
 
STAX USA/Yama's Enterprises only sells the newer Nova/Numerical arc design. It's possible to mount those on a vintage Lambda, but you have to remove these studs on the earcup holes first. Even then, I don't like the higher clamping force that new arc brings.
 
Most SR-Lambdas I've seen in complete and working order go for $250-300, usually not with transformer boxes. Looking at it that way, $320 for one with an SRD-6 isn't so bad if everything works...but still a bit higher that I'd like, especially seeing as I don't need the SRD-6.

You could've glued the headband fairly easy... My LS is glued because the arc snapped. Wonder what amplifier you have bought, though?
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM Post #141 of 3,322
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Because of these:

Funny because purrin and few other "elite snob audiophools" praised the Paradox as possibly the best modded T50RP headphones late last year, heck a lot of people preferred it to the earlier Mad Dogs, I haven't heard the Paradox but the Mad Dogs I borrowed earlier this year with the older pads were a disappointment. Which says another thing about peoples impressions is that it changes all the time, so I skip all the bs here and listen to it with my own ears.
 
There is one thing important about head-fi and audio is never jump on the hype bandwagon.
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 5:10 AM Post #142 of 3,322
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You could've glued the headband fairly easy... My LS is glued because the arc snapped. Wonder what amplifier you have bought, though?

 
What I could see in the pics suggested not a fracture, but an entire chunk of arc missing.
 
But if you must know about the amp...it's an SRM-T1. Opinions on its design are fairly divisive, but the mods applied and tubes used could have something to do with that.
 
Can't say I ever thought I'd own an amp with vacuum tubes before...
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 5:14 AM Post #143 of 3,322
Woah, nice! So, how much did you pay for that one?
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 5:31 AM Post #144 of 3,322
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Woah, nice! So, how much did you pay for that one?

 
Just a bit under $404 shipped...which was apparently on the high side of pricing years ago, but nowadays I don't see 'em for under $500 very often. More like $550-650.
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 5:48 AM Post #145 of 3,322
That is indeed a good price. I paid 630$ for my t1 and lambda sig's. I think you are in for something pretty good, I know I like my setup. Actually, my t1 hasn't been opened in the last 25 years (no servicing) and it seems to be working well.
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 7:05 AM Post #146 of 3,322
The especially good deal I had was a year or two ago; an SR-Lambda with rebuilt drivers and no mineral wool in the earcups, along with an SRD-7/SB for the mere sum of $250, beckoning me to replace my AD700 with it. Fortunately, I had an old receiver lying around to supply speaker-level power, and, well, the rest is history, being the set I always go back to no matter what else I've auditioned thus far.
 
Since then, it's been a damn gateway drug, only giving me more curiosity into the world of Stax and electrostatics in general. I can't quite say I like everything I've found along the way, but it does make me wonder more and more how far I went with just $250, compared to everything else that usually sells around that price.
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 9:45 AM Post #147 of 3,322
Best deal was my Lambda Pro and SRD-7 sb MK2, both in there original box for 350. At the same time I bought mine, an LP + SRM1 MK2 went for 400.

Best deal I've ever seen was a T1 amp sold for 250 mint condition.
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 8:23 PM Post #148 of 3,322
People would kill for those prices nowadays...

On that note, shortly before I got my first Stax setup, someone on eBay scored a Koss ESP/950 system, complete with E/90 and all, for just $350 shipped.

If I just had more money at the time...good luck finding an ESP/950 for under $500 these days!
 
Aug 19, 2013 at 8:59 PM Post #149 of 3,322
 
  Yeah that's why I sent the inquiry. A lot of people say the SRS-2170 has a upper-midrange peak and I'm curious to see if it does indeed show up in the measurements.
 
I didn't even know Innerfidelity had its own forums, but this user was interested in the SR-207 measurement as well.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/measurement-requests

 
The SRS-2170 upper mid-range peak must be tamer than the Q701 peak. 
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I would guess that the Stax is less resonant in the top end.
But I'm really just guessing.......

K 702
 

 
 
SRS-2170
 

 
 
 
Or Dr. Olive's graphs
K 702

 
SRS-2170

 
 
 
Upper-mids are around the 2 kHz - 6 kHz range from this chart:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
 
Pick your poison. XD
I would say the SRS-2170 is actually more off from the "ideal" curves. I haven't done much A/B-ing in-person though.
 

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