The Closed-Back Headphone Thread (Plus Comparisons & Reviews)
Dec 20, 2023 at 6:18 PM Post #6,091 of 6,351
I've been part-time following the E3 discussion. People say it's more dynamic, but I'll believe it when I hear it because the Aeon 2 Noire wasn't dynamic and the Stealth wasn't dynamic, while the Corina and the Expanse masked their low dynamics with bass quantity. The Stealth was uninspiring both times I tried it. It's better than the Noire, I'll give it that much, with more controlled treble and less rubbery bass, but most of the things that I grew to loathe on the Noire were still there on the Stealth; that blunting of notes and the constriction of note decay. I actually liked the Stealth better on the Woo Audio WA22 tube amp than on clean-sounding solid state gear. I presume the added distortion and lack of damping resulted in slightly more reverberation which contributed to that sense of openness. And openness is one of the most important qualities I look for in a headphone.

Anyways, I'll give the E3 a try the next time I head out to HeadAmp and I'll listen to it first so my mind isn't already in comparison mode. It never hurts to try something out, especially if the trip involves eating great empanadas at a nearby bakery (if any of you are in Charlottesville VA, I recommend trying out Cumbre Bakery). Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised with the E3, but I admit I'm biased to not expect it.

I think that's because "dynamic" isn't widely agreed upon or understood. I assume it refers to dynamic range, so what is that in a headphone exactly - SPL difference between the quietest and loudest sound? Or is it a tangible aspect of frequency response? I see it being used to refer to bass slam, especially with headphones with a V-shaped sound signature since there you can have a lot of extra energy both in the lows and highs.

But it certainly sounds like the E3 isn't for you - if one doesn't like the Stealth, they are very unlikely to like the E3 and vice versa. Especially since you preferred the Stealth on the WA22 which is very telling that what you're really after is a different headphone entirely.
 
Dec 21, 2023 at 12:06 AM Post #6,092 of 6,351
I think that's because "dynamic" isn't widely agreed upon or understood. I assume it refers to dynamic range, so what is that in a headphone exactly - SPL difference between the quietest and loudest sound? Or is it a tangible aspect of frequency response? I see it being used to refer to bass slam, especially with headphones with a V-shaped sound signature since there you can have a lot of extra energy both in the lows and highs.
It's the expression of dynamic range, how much difference there is between soft and loud, particularly as it deals with the leading edges of notes, the transients. This manifests as bass slam as well as punchiness and liveliness throughout the frequency range, like how notes "pop" in the music. This is also referred to as "crest factor" in music production. Dan Clark has mentioned this in interviews as an aspect of his design and tuning. How much a headphone overshoots the crest factor in transients is effectively how dynamic it is. Dan found that most headphones overshoot the transients present in the signal to varying degrees. His headphones (at least during the Aeon 2 and Stealth time frame) were designed to not overshoot at all, hence the huge amount of damping in the designs. If a signal has a 6 dB crest on the leading edge of a note, then a DCA headphone will only give you a 6 dB increase in SPL, no more. Thus it will only provide that sense of punch and slam if the music itself is mastered with huge dynamics.

You can give any headphone more slam and dynamics by using dynamic EQ. The issue with parametric EQ is that any filter affects all levels of the signal equally. Both soft and loud parts are boosted in equal measure, so the difference between them is the same no matter how much you boost. Dynamic EQ is nonlinear, so it will look at the signal and adjust how much to boost or cut depending on what's happening in the signal. Hence, it can act as a dynamic expander and increase the difference between soft and loud by boosting only when transients occur. This has a transformative effect on DCA headphones in my experience (mainly with the Aeon 2 Noire). All of the bluntedness and constriction that I heard is lessened by expanding dynamics across the whole frequency range and I found it far more enjoyable as a result. But then I'm forced to use a computer for listening, as dynamic EQ only exists as VST/AAX plugins as far as I can tell, and I feel like I'm undoing Dan's work in tuning his headphones. Why go through all of this effort to undo what is an intentional part of the tuning?

Since dynamic EQ is nonlinear, I suspect that it will not show any difference in frequency response graphs, which measure the linear variations in SPL. I think it would show up as some form of distortion. Maybe it's encapsulated in THD and we just need to pick it out, or it might be something else like TIM (temporal intermodular distortion), I don't know. DCA headphones measure with extremely low distortion, particularly in the bass, while headphones that are known for slam, like Focal and Abyss headphones, usually measure with very high distortion in the bass.

Thus my suspicion about reports of improved dynamics. If the E3 has better dynamics, either Dan Clark has reversed/softened his position on avoiding overshoot, or he has somehow figured out a secret sauce to allow more perceived dynamics without generating actual overshoot. Or that he was wrong earlier about his headphones being accurate to the signal and they've actually been undershooting (though that doesn't make much sense as undershoot would imply insufficient bandwidth). I note that the E3 has more venting in the back of the earcups, which should allow for greater diaphragm excursion as the air behind the diaphragm can more easily escape rather than compressing, and thus should not pose as much resistance to diaphragm movement.

All of this theorizing aside, I'll give the E3 a shot. I actually quite enjoyed the sound of the Noire after I expanded its dynamics with full-spectrum DEQ and no other parametric EQ changes to its tonality, so if the E3 has more dynamics without any DEQ necessary, I might be interested. Though I'm a bit wary of its midrange tuning; I've heard on some reviews that it sounds similar to the LCD-5, and I think all of the new Audezes (LCD-5, MM-500, CRBN) are a bit too shouty for my tastes.
 
Dec 21, 2023 at 8:22 AM Post #6,093 of 6,351
It's the expression of dynamic range, how much difference there is between soft and loud, particularly as it deals with the leading edges of notes, the transients. This manifests as bass slam as well as punchiness and liveliness throughout the frequency range, like how notes "pop" in the music. This is also referred to as "crest factor" in music production. Dan Clark has mentioned this in interviews as an aspect of his design and tuning. How much a headphone overshoots the crest factor in transients is effectively how dynamic it is. Dan found that most headphones overshoot the transients present in the signal to varying degrees. His headphones (at least during the Aeon 2 and Stealth time frame) were designed to not overshoot at all, hence the huge amount of damping in the designs. If a signal has a 6 dB crest on the leading edge of a note, then a DCA headphone will only give you a 6 dB increase in SPL, no more. Thus it will only provide that sense of punch and slam if the music itself is mastered with huge dynamics.

You can give any headphone more slam and dynamics by using dynamic EQ. The issue with parametric EQ is that any filter affects all levels of the signal equally. Both soft and loud parts are boosted in equal measure, so the difference between them is the same no matter how much you boost. Dynamic EQ is nonlinear, so it will look at the signal and adjust how much to boost or cut depending on what's happening in the signal. Hence, it can act as a dynamic expander and increase the difference between soft and loud by boosting only when transients occur. This has a transformative effect on DCA headphones in my experience (mainly with the Aeon 2 Noire). All of the bluntedness and constriction that I heard is lessened by expanding dynamics across the whole frequency range and I found it far more enjoyable as a result. But then I'm forced to use a computer for listening, as dynamic EQ only exists as VST/AAX plugins as far as I can tell, and I feel like I'm undoing Dan's work in tuning his headphones. Why go through all of this effort to undo what is an intentional part of the tuning?

Since dynamic EQ is nonlinear, I suspect that it will not show any difference in frequency response graphs, which measure the linear variations in SPL. I think it would show up as some form of distortion. Maybe it's encapsulated in THD and we just need to pick it out, or it might be something else like TIM (temporal intermodular distortion), I don't know. DCA headphones measure with extremely low distortion, particularly in the bass, while headphones that are known for slam, like Focal and Abyss headphones, usually measure with very high distortion in the bass.

Thus my suspicion about reports of improved dynamics. If the E3 has better dynamics, either Dan Clark has reversed/softened his position on avoiding overshoot, or he has somehow figured out a secret sauce to allow more perceived dynamics without generating actual overshoot. Or that he was wrong earlier about his headphones being accurate to the signal and they've actually been undershooting (though that doesn't make much sense as undershoot would imply insufficient bandwidth). I note that the E3 has more venting in the back of the earcups, which should allow for greater diaphragm excursion as the air behind the diaphragm can more easily escape rather than compressing, and thus should not pose as much resistance to diaphragm movement.

All of this theorizing aside, I'll give the E3 a shot. I actually quite enjoyed the sound of the Noire after I expanded its dynamics with full-spectrum DEQ and no other parametric EQ changes to its tonality, so if the E3 has more dynamics without any DEQ necessary, I might be interested. Though I'm a bit wary of its midrange tuning; I've heard on some reviews that it sounds similar to the LCD-5, and I think all of the new Audezes (LCD-5, MM-500, CRBN) are a bit too shouty for my tastes.

Thanks for the explanation! I'll also go hunt down the talk in which Dan talked about that for his designs. Also you can probably ask him in the E3 thread to comment on this subject, to help clarify some of those comments about E3 dynamics, not that this should talk you out of trying it for yourself.

Having read about the lack of dynamics on the Stealth before getting the E3, when I was comparing it to the Celestee, K371, ETA, I was paying attention to this aspect but didn't find drastic differences here so I suspect I'm an unreliable listener for this.
 
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Dec 21, 2023 at 9:14 AM Post #6,094 of 6,351
I think that's because "dynamic" isn't widely agreed upon or understood. I assume it refers to dynamic range, so what is that in a headphone exactly - SPL difference between the quietest and loudest sound? Or is it a tangible aspect of frequency response? I see it being used to refer to bass slam, especially with headphones with a V-shaped sound signature since there you can have a lot of extra energy both in the lows and highs.

But it certainly sounds like the E3 isn't for you - if one doesn't like the Stealth, they are very unlikely to like the E3 and vice versa. Especially since you preferred the Stealth on the WA22 which is very telling that what you're really after is a different headphone entirely.


I am also interested in the E3, though not for any immediate purchase (mucho $$$). I owned the Noire's, and though really loving their natural sound, did also find that the dynamics (or slam, etc) were a little lacking, and just chose to keep my cheaper Beyer T5's with a wider soundstage.

The E3 is supposedly more dynamic (yay) and has a wider soundstage, which would make them a huge win for me because DCA headphones are so comfortable...whereas the Beyers are not super comfy for me.

an extra 1k is a lot for some minor tweaks, but if it actually does have dynamics and wider stage, then I would probably get them at some point as my endgame. I don't really like the looks...and they are definitely heavier than the Noire's, which were otherwise a great design (no 'gamer' style...just clean), but sound and comfort are priority.
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 8:56 AM Post #6,095 of 6,351
Hi guys, I've been thinking about this for a while, I'm looking for the following in an ideal headphone:
- closed back or semi closed back
- planar drivers
- neutral or warm tuning
- great dynamics and punch (my guess is I need double sided magnets for that, which probably excludes a lot of closed back planars?)
= Basically an Audeze Sine or a M565C with improved dynamics...

What would be the closest thing to that right now according to you? The only one I see is the LCD-2 CB. Or the Rognir with EQ but different budget...
 
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Jan 12, 2024 at 9:03 AM Post #6,096 of 6,351
Hi guys, I've been thinking about this for a while, I'm looking for the following in an ideal headphone:
- closed back or semi closed back
- planar drivers
- neutral or warm tuning
- great dynamics and punch (my guess is I need double sided drivers for that, which probably excludes a lot of closed back planars?)
= Basically an Audeze Sine or a M565C with improved dynamics...

What would be the closest thing to that right now according to you? The only one I see is the LCD-2 CB. Or the Rognir with EQ but different budget...

If you're after more dynamics and punch, I think you should avoid headphones with a totally flat bass response and upper mid/treble recession, which is the typical Audeze character. I recommend trying the Dan Clark Audio E3.
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 9:17 AM Post #6,097 of 6,351
Hi guys, I've been thinking about this for a while, I'm looking for the following in an ideal headphone:
- closed back or semi closed back
- planar drivers
- neutral or warm tuning
- great dynamics and punch (my guess is I need double sided drivers for that, which probably excludes a lot of closed back planars?)
= Basically an Audeze Sine or a M565C with improved dynamics...

What would be the closest thing to that right now according to you? The only one I see is the LCD-2 CB. Or the Rognir with EQ but different budget...
Rognir with fully non-perforated pads (ECL-03)
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 9:17 AM Post #6,098 of 6,351
If you're after more dynamics and punch, I think you should avoid headphones with a totally flat bass response and upper mid/treble recession, which is the typical Audeze character. I recommend trying the Dan Clark Audio E3.
I'm okay with the flat bass (LCD5 or HD600 for instance) but I'm looking for more body/impact than what many cheaply built planars provide. Good point about the E3 boosted bass though. I hope I can audition the DCAs one day.
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 9:47 AM Post #6,099 of 6,351
I'm okay with the flat bass (LCD5 or HD600 for instance) but I'm looking for more body/impact than what many cheaply built planars provide. Good point about the E3 boosted bass though. I hope I can audition the DCAs one day.
E3 might be the only choice if its to be a planar. With your requirements I'd expect a better fit from dynamic drivers though.
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 10:41 AM Post #6,101 of 6,351
There is always DCA Aeon noire but that is boosted bass as well.

Ether C flow can get quite slammy as well but it needs a high power precise source as it can get decently laid back.

Yeah those also have some upper mid to lower treble recession which can lead to less perceived dynamics or attack like you say. Worth trying but the E3 is probably the most appropriate DCA and maybe planar in general for those tastes.
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 12:01 PM Post #6,102 of 6,351
When I mentioned dynamics I was thinking more about the punch and impact, rather than frequency tricks. My electrostats are abysmal on this no matter how you EQ them for instance.
I think it's very much related to driver technology used (and magnet structure in the case of planars). I've always heard that the DCAs had weak dynamics but they're definitely on my to do list to audition.
 
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Jan 12, 2024 at 12:32 PM Post #6,103 of 6,351
When I mentioned dynamics I was thinking more about the punch and impact, rather than frequency tricks. My electrostats are abysmal on this no matter how you EQ them for instance.
I think it's very much related to driver technology used (and magnet structure in the case of planars). I've always heard that the DCAs had weak dynamics but they're definitely on my to do list to audition.

Mid to upper bass response and ~2-5 KHz response are key components to punch and impact, even some electrostatic headphone systems can do well here. This is a pretty good breakdown:

1705080717892.png


I don't recommend limiting search based on transducer tech, but as you say auditioning is the solution.
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 12:44 PM Post #6,104 of 6,351
Mid to upper bass response and ~2-5 KHz response are key components to punch and impact, even some electrostatic headphone systems can do well here. This is a pretty good breakdown:

1705080717892.png

I don't recommend limiting search based on transducer tech, but as you say auditioning is the solution.
I wouldn't trust that diagram too much. It doesn't account for when a headphone combines multiple deviations, because combinations of deviations can sound better than a single deviation on its own. Plus, it's missing a few significant ranges like a dip between 1-2K; that dip often increases the perceived size of the soundstage, people often consider a positive attribute.

Additionally, I've become less and less convinced that dynamics are just a frequency response attribute. My experience is that dynamics is linked to the rendering of crest factor in the signal, and something like a dynamic EQ or expander/compressor tools (nonlinear EQ) can adjust the crest factor in ways that parametric EQs that only operate on frequency response and phase (i.e. linear EQ) cannot.
 
Jan 12, 2024 at 12:58 PM Post #6,105 of 6,351
I wouldn't trust that diagram too much. It doesn't account for when a headphone combines multiple deviations, because combinations of deviations can sound better than a single deviation on its own. Plus, it's missing a few significant ranges like a dip between 1-2K; that dip often increases the perceived size of the soundstage, people often consider a positive attribute.

Additionally, I've become less and less convinced that dynamics are just a frequency response attribute. My experience is that dynamics is linked to the rendering of crest factor in the signal, and something like a dynamic EQ or expander/compressor tools (nonlinear EQ) can adjust the crest factor in ways that parametric EQs that only operate on frequency response and phase (i.e. linear EQ) cannot.

Yeah FR is very relative, HiFiMan HE1000s for example aren't as dark as they might appear on an FR graph because the bass response is reduced in addition to the 1-3 KHz region.
 

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