The Bose NC 700 Noise Cancelling Headphones
May 13, 2020 at 11:01 PM Post #151 of 202
DSP only serves to increase distortion...not help it. Your comments of the QC35 are a bit over the top...and I liked them. Go listen to a pair of Audeze Mobius...it is on a different level of existence.

You quite literally contradicted yourself in this post. The reason Audeze cans take DSP so well is due to the vanishingly low distortion inherent in the design.

It’s not the only way to achieve low distortion. ORA has it. I am quite sure Bose is one of the few who make their own custom drivers to a very exacting performance spec. You can see this in the acoustic Enginner jobs they post and how their engineers talk about their achievements in their LinkedIn profiles. Remember that they are run by MIT leaders of folks from that kind of cloth. They have an excellent engineering bar and culture.

The 700’s are slamming Better than they used to. Even if you dislike the product, which is fine, get your facts straight.
 
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May 13, 2020 at 11:03 PM Post #152 of 202
You quite literally contradicted yourself in this post. The reason Audeze cans take DSP so well is due to the vanishingly low distortion inherent in the design.

It’s not the only way to achieve low distortion. ORA has it. I am quite sure Bose is one of the few who make their own custom drivers to a very exacting performance spec. You can see this in the acoustic Enginner jobs they post and how their engineers talk about their achievements in their LinkedIn profiles. Remember that they are run by MIT leaders of folks from that kind of cloth. They have an excellent engineering bar and culture.

They are slamming Better than they used to. Even if you dislike the product, which is fine, get your facts straight.

Not at all...DSP and the Mobius work because orthos (and especially their ortho drivers) have extremely low distortion. The QC35...not so much. Software does not lower distortion...it just adjust frequency response. There is a reason many audiophiles turn their noses up at equalization...it typically increases distortion.

Bose isn't known for making good audiophile level gear...in fact they are often mocked for their failings (Buy Other Sound Equipment and the like), but they do make some good to great consumer NC headphones though.

Who said the NC700s were bad and why is slamming bass the determining factor of good headphones? Do you work for Bose? Because I can show you many great articles on their poor culture and design work (or lack thereof). They are primarily a marketing company.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 12:27 AM Post #153 of 202
DSP only serves to increase distortion...not help it. Your comments of the QC35 are a bit over the top...and I liked them. Go listen to a pair of Audeze Mobius...it is on a different level of existence.
DSP can do either. EQing randomly increases distortion. A calculated filter with feedback eliminates distortion. In the QC 35 the DSP reduces the high bass distortion of the driver in passive mode to extremely low levels in active mode. The measurements show how well the DSP eliminates bass distortion all the way down to 10 Hz.

I have the Mobius and think the QC 35 has better sub-bass. The Mobius has much better treble and thus is overall a better headphone as the treble distortion / frequency response on the QC 35 makes it intolerable.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 1:11 AM Post #154 of 202
Not at all...DSP and the Mobius work because orthos (and especially their ortho drivers) have extremely low distortion. The QC35...not so much. Software does not lower distortion...it just adjust frequency response. There is a reason many audiophiles turn their noses up at equalization...it typically increases distortion.

Bose isn't known for making good audiophile level gear...in fact they are often mocked for their failings (Buy Other Sound Equipment and the like), but they do make some good to great consumer NC headphones though.

I think you're really missing the point here. I specifically said that DSP works well in Audeze because of their low distortion. They certainly don't have a monopoly on that characteristic.

Bose is not an Audiophile product, I agree. But you are severely underestimating their talent level. They have profile after profile of top class engineers.

Here are the Job Requirements to Apply:
Now that there's no question of the talent level, we have to ask: what is the spec they're required to design for? It's certainly not tailored nor targeted to the average head-fi demographic. They are focused on creating products for many people. However, I know these kinds of engineers. They pride themselves on exceptional engineering.

Now, the reason many dynamic drivers distort with EQ is because they are already exhibiting distortion without being pushed out of their measured performance. Audiophiles aren't very technical and sniggle at things they don't understand while buying $2000 snake oil cables. The fact that they exhibit the dismissive behavior toward DSP does not hold factual merit toward DSP inherently causing distortion in anything but an Orhto. Outside of the already mentioned GrapheneQ, Sennheiser achieved incredible distortion characteristics on the HD800, which takes DSP quite well. Biodynamic designs also take DSP well.

Does Bose absolutely slaughter THD like the above? No. They have a few things they optimize like cost of parts, comfortable materials, design engineers, human factors engineers. Etc. Where they may be a silver medal in THD, it's certainly a B+ or level performance, before factoring in that they achieve this while performing state of the art ANC and DSP.

Don't take my word for it, here is Tyll's analysis of the QC35: https://www.innerfidelity.com/conte...reless-noise-canceling-headphone-measurements. Again, the comparison of ANC vs Audiophile isn't quite neutral playing grounds. IMHO, I owned the Sony M3 for over a year and the B&W PX before that. I greatly prefer the Bose due to the Harman-esque tuning, low distortion, human factors, equal loudness curves etc.

Now, I'm not saying that the 700 is an Audiophile headphone like an Audeze. I love Audeze. And Bose. They are basically my 2 brands these days. Yes, I have a Mobius. It's actually my least fav Audeze product. I personally know their CTO, Dr. C. I've auditioned prototypes and have experienced the entire range.

But on an anecdotal note about the Bose 700 bass: I primarily listen to EDM where sub-bass is a focus area and high-quality transient response performance is important due to the speed of changes going on. I do feel that the Bose is the only ANC/Consumer style headphone that gives me the personal satisfaction that can come within punching distance of my Audezes. It was weak compared to the QC35 prior to this update. Trust. They slam now.

But at the end of the day, your point simply lacks merit on a factual basis. Orthos don't have a monopoly on distortion. Integrated design processes can keep distortion within ranges where it's perceptually immaterial when designed as a coherent system. If you're going to counterpoint this, please include some research materials to add to this deep discussion instead of shouting from the echochamber.

Feel free to poop on this product with your opinion, though.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 1:27 AM Post #155 of 202
DSP can do either. EQing randomly increases distortion. A calculated filter with feedback eliminates distortion. In the QC 35 the DSP reduces the high bass distortion of the driver in passive mode to extremely low levels in active mode. The measurements show how well the DSP eliminates bass distortion all the way down to 10 Hz.

I have the Mobius and think the QC 35 has better sub-bass. The Mobius has much better treble and thus is overall a better headphone as the treble distortion / frequency response on the QC 35 makes it intolerable.

Ehh, I don’t think a well calculated filter necessarily does anything other than adjust the frequency response. Whether or not the driver will be able to keep distortion low or break up depends entirely on it’s intrinsic acoustics structural performance.

But yeah, I also prefer the Bose to the Mobius. And I prefer the iSine to both of them.

I’ll be watching the LCD1 closed release with high hopes but have that product gap filled with the ORA, which I’ll be sending to /u/Oratory1990 for Harman measurements and will implement them via Quidelix 5k. The Ora is a platform just right for DSP/EQ and it’s so efficient that the little Quidelix will drive it to excellent performance.

It actually slams so hard that I have difficulty imagining any closed Ortho design being able to compete for “oomph” factor. The excursion on dynamic designs just fit that use so well.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 3:09 AM Post #156 of 202
Good that they finally did it. I was not counting it on as it took so long.
 
May 14, 2020 at 3:14 AM Post #157 of 202
And planar bass is severely overrated. The Utopia which has a neutral bass can out slam and out punch planar headphones (with a bass boost).
 
May 14, 2020 at 3:42 AM Post #158 of 202
I have been quickly playing it and also pulled up the Sony WH-1000XM3 quickly.

I am pretty sure my girlfriend (she is a basshead) will still prefer the Sony’s as it has this mid-bass boost and you can boost the bass harder with the Sony app.

But for me it is fine. It is a good update.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 8:14 AM Post #159 of 202
I think you're really missing the point here. I specifically said that DSP works well in Audeze because of their low distortion. They certainly don't have a monopoly on that characteristic.

Bose is not an Audiophile product, I agree. But you are severely underestimating their talent level. They have profile after profile of top class engineers.

Here are the Job Requirements to Apply:
Now that there's no question of the talent level, we have to ask: what is the spec they're required to design for? It's certainly not tailored nor targeted to the average head-fi demographic. They are focused on creating products for many people. However, I know these kinds of engineers. They pride themselves on exceptional engineering.

Now, the reason many dynamic drivers distort with EQ is because they are already exhibiting distortion without being pushed out of their measured performance. Audiophiles aren't very technical and sniggle at things they don't understand while buying $2000 snake oil cables. The fact that they exhibit the dismissive behavior toward DSP does not hold factual merit toward DSP inherently causing distortion in anything but an Orhto. Outside of the already mentioned GrapheneQ, Sennheiser achieved incredible distortion characteristics on the HD800, which takes DSP quite well. Biodynamic designs also take DSP well.

Does Bose absolutely slaughter THD like the above? No. They have a few things they optimize like cost of parts, comfortable materials, design engineers, human factors engineers. Etc. Where they may be a silver medal in THD, it's certainly a B+ or level performance, before factoring in that they achieve this while performing state of the art ANC and DSP.

Don't take my word for it, here is Tyll's analysis of the QC35: https://www.innerfidelity.com/conte...reless-noise-canceling-headphone-measurements. Again, the comparison of ANC vs Audiophile isn't quite neutral playing grounds. IMHO, I owned the Sony M3 for over a year and the B&W PX before that. I greatly prefer the Bose due to the Harman-esque tuning, low distortion, human factors, equal loudness curves etc.

Now, I'm not saying that the 700 is an Audiophile headphone like an Audeze. I love Audeze. And Bose. They are basically my 2 brands these days. Yes, I have a Mobius. It's actually my least fav Audeze product. I personally know their CTO, Dr. C. I've auditioned prototypes and have experienced the entire range.

But on an anecdotal note about the Bose 700 bass: I primarily listen to EDM where sub-bass is a focus area and high-quality transient response performance is important due to the speed of changes going on. I do feel that the Bose is the only ANC/Consumer style headphone that gives me the personal satisfaction that can come within punching distance of my Audezes. It was weak compared to the QC35 prior to this update. Trust. They slam now.

But at the end of the day, your point simply lacks merit on a factual basis. Orthos don't have a monopoly on distortion. Integrated design processes can keep distortion within ranges where it's perceptually immaterial when designed as a coherent system. If you're going to counterpoint this, please include some research materials to add to this deep discussion instead of shouting from the echochamber.

Feel free to poop on this product with your opinion, though.

The argument from authority is fallacious (https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/ - Appeal to Authority). Sorry, doesn’t sway me in any way. A limited driver like the qc35 can only do so much and software adjustments cannot reduce cone breakdown inherent in the driver physically. They are quiet nice consumer NC headphones and as I mentioned I really like them. But for critical audiophile use...sorry, not for me! I don't want "slam", but rather deep controlled and defined bass that is in good proportion to the mids/treble. But hey, that's just me and a matter of personal tastes.

Remember these are the same guys who brought us the Bose Triports and the like. I would rather they spend their efforts on pushing technology with better driver designs instead of inexpensive options and then charging a premium price. Not just ortho designs, but e-stats, HEDD's new AMT design in headphones, recent advances in dynamic drivers by Focal and ZMF etc... And in the end...I really like the QC35s and NC700s, but to say they are world beaters is a bridge too far for me.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 8:20 AM Post #160 of 202
And planar bass is severely overrated. The Utopia which has a neutral bass can out slam and out punch planar headphones (with a bass boost).

So the Beryllium Utopia drovers are similar to the qc35? :)
 
May 14, 2020 at 8:42 AM Post #161 of 202
So the Beryllium Utopia drovers are similar to the qc35? :)

The Bose NC 700 does deliver a flat bass with great extension without audible distortion indeed.

The planar bass reputation comes from the old days were dynamic driver headphones struggle to have linear sub bass without distortion (think of headphones like the HD 650 and the HD 800S).

Modern dynamic driver headphones do not have this issue. The Focal Utopia is an example of that.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 9:07 AM Post #162 of 202
The Bose NC 700 does deliver a flat bass with great extension without audible distortion indeed.

The planar bass reputation comes from the old days were dynamic driver headphones struggle to have linear sub bass without distortion (think of headphones like the HD 650 and the HD 800S).

Modern dynamic driver headphones do not have this issue. The Focal Utopia is an example of that.

Unfortunately modern dynamic headphones do suffer from issues like cone break down. You cannot hold up the Utopia and say...see the problem is solved across the board because it isn't. Focal's engineers spent a lot of time and effort (and resources) in developing their Be drivers and I applaud them for that, but that is limited to Focal. I like the NC700s and QC35s...you might want to see who actually started this thread. :wink: That said, in the end, I kept the WH1000XM3 as my travel/flying wireless NC headphones.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 10:47 AM Post #163 of 202
Unfortunately modern dynamic headphones do suffer from issues like cone break down. You cannot hold up the Utopia and say...see the problem is solved across the board because it isn't. Focal's engineers spent a lot of time and effort (and resources) in developing their Be drivers and I applaud them for that, but that is limited to Focal. I like the NC700s and QC35s...you might want to see who actually started this thread. :wink: That said, in the end, I kept the WH1000XM3 as my travel/flying wireless NC headphones.

Most people when talking about planar bass is about linear sub bass and low distortion. The HD 800S was not critiqued for it’s cone break (which only Focal seem to do correctly).

Modern dynamic headphones do meet that requirement.

For $400, I don’t see the point of attacking the Bose NC 700 for cone break up. And most people who buy ANC headphones do not care about that.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 10:55 AM Post #164 of 202
Most people when talking about planar bass is about linear sub bass and low distortion. The HD 800S was not critiqued for it’s cone break (which only Focal seem to do correctly).

Modern dynamic headphones do meet that requirement.

For $400, I don’t see the point of attacking the Bose NC 700 for cone break up. And most people who buy ANC headphones do not care about that.

Very limited dynamics do meet that requirement is the only correction that I would make. I think you missed my response was to whether the QC35s could perform like a good pair of orthos...which they don't and can't due to cone break up. The rest is a poor strawman argument that I'm quite tired of. Please take some time and re-read my posts. I think we agree more than disagree.
 
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May 14, 2020 at 1:32 PM Post #165 of 202
Does the Bose NC 700 have a linear sub bass like a planar? Yes.

Does the Bose NC 700 have no audible bass distortion like a planar? Yes.

So it is close enough to a planar bass.
 
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