The Beyerdynamic DT48 Arrives...

[lejaz]

Yeah, people like Nikongod(I think it was) who claim that any decent ss amp like the mkV can drive them well are sorely mistaken. Luckily I read shamu's experience with the bass roll off with the LD mkIII. That gave me a clue that it could very well be a bad mismatch with my mkV. I never meant say that they had a steep roll off starting at 90hz. It felt like a shallow roll off started somewhere around 80 or so and got progressively steeper as it got further towards the low bass. But, they're definitely better now in the low end with the adapter. I always thought the mids were a great tool for mixing, but now I can also enjoy them for simple casual listening. They seem a perfect match for the classic rock from the mid-late '60's that I listen to a lot. ...and classic jazz and acoustic music as well. 
 
Quote:

Yeah.. The DT48 is tricky when it comes to getting the bass.. Many variables come to mind. Out put OHM, volume, recording, cup positioning, seal, etc.. I blame the amp to some extent, & the DT48 themselves, but I KNEW Lejaz could get better bass out of his DT48.. It was about solving the puzzle.. Most would have given up.. & I Nikon gave him a, the sky is falling scenario, putting all the blame on the DT48, which I never agreed with.. He is very bright & knows more about headphones then I do, but I eat, sleep, & breath the DT48, so I wasn't prepared to 'throw the baby out with the bath water.' He would get even more ample bass if used with a current DT48e.. But he is content with his vintage pair, which is fine.. When Lejaz would mention the 70-90hz roll bass, I would always cringe.. I knew something was wrong in the chain.. I know the DT48 well enough to know there was a mistake..
 



Shamu also has the HD800, so is even more impressive. A true bona fide ultra hi end headphone. If he is willing to share his impressions in our thread that would be great.. Albeit, if they waver from the masses, he could get flamed for it or just be labeled a DT48 nut not to be believed like me..(You should check out one PM I got. It's really getting silly here & childish. "You need psychiatric help. seriously.")Too bad you couldn't hear the HE6 mid range.. Take the authenticity/up close mids of the DT48 & put them with the naturalness, & effortless HE6 mids, & you have the perfect mids IMO.. If the R10 does this or BETTERS it, it should cost 4,000. (retail) No small feat. Yes, the DT48a puts more emphasis on the mid range.. Can you have recessed instruments..lol..



Yes, the HE6 is giving me OArtho fever.. I owned Ortho's before, but clearly not on the level of the HE6.. Think going from the 595 to the HD800.. Why companies dumped Ortho's is beyond me.. I refuse to say they are overall better then Dynamic, but in certain areas they are.. Nothing to debate. Naturalness of the sound.. effortless flow of the music, & smoothness.. Dynamics just can't compete in those areas.. I'm leaning towards the LCD2 over the HD800 as of now.. In part thanks to Shamu & the 400 less price tag.. If you like the DT48, I think you will like the HE6..It just pains me they are such a pain to drive.. They include bannana plugs for gosh sakes!! I do agree that in terms of faithful presentation to the music the DT48 is still tops IMO.. I just wish I could get a better sonic picture of the HE6.. I even ran the HE6 on my Yamaha receiever headphone out & was amazed.. Still debating if I should use my speaker terminal.. I really don't want to risk it. These are not my headphones.. Looks like my GP V9/oppo83se will have to be the deciding factor, which, admitedly favors the DT48..easier to drive..

 

[Soaa-]

I have a question though, after all this discussion comparing the DT 48 to a bunch of other headphones. Are there any closed headphones that compare to the DT 48 in terms of transparency, lack of color, and effortlessness?

 

[kool bubba ice]

I'm very glad.. This been bothering me the whole time. Funny. I don't even know you, but sincerley felt bad for your situation.. I truly am glad you are happy with your DT48 to a larger extent.
Quote:

Yeah, people like Nikongod(I think it was) who claim that any decent ss amp like the mkV can drive them well are sorely mistaken. Luckily I read shamu's experience with the bass roll off with the LD mkIII. That gave me a clue that it could very well be a bad mismatch with my mkV. I never meant say that they had a steep roll off starting at 90hz. It felt like a shallow roll off started somewhere around 80 or so and got progressively steeper as it got further towards the low bass. But, they're definitely better now in the low end with the adapter. I always thought the mids were a great tool for mixing, but now I can also enjoy them for simple casual listening. They seem a perfect match for the classic rock from the mid-late '60's that I listen to a lot. ...and classic jazz and acoustic music as well. 
 

 

The STAX 4070 or probaly a vintage monitor Ortho..
Quote:

I have a question though, after all this discussion comparing the DT 48 to a bunch of other headphones. Are there any closed headphones that compare to the DT 48 in terms of transparency, lack of color, and effortlessness?

 

[shamu144]

I will in a few days... Stay tuned. 
 
Quote:

Shamu also has the HD800, so is even more impressive. A true bona fide ultra hi end headphone. If he is willing to share his impressions in our thread that would be great..
 

 

[shamu144]

The new SONY Z1000 hopefully

 
Quote:

I have a question though, after all this discussion comparing the DT 48 to a bunch of other headphones. Are there any closed headphones that compare to the DT 48 in terms of transparency, lack of color, and effortlessness?

 

[mobbaddict]

I'm curious to know your final impressions about these high end headphones guys, especially in terms of soundstage. Studio headphones give a great intimicy to the music for me (something i kind of miss when going from the CD900 to the O2). They're a bit like some fullsize IEMs. I expect the HD800 to be the polar opposite of the DT48 in that regard. Of course the airy presentation of open headphones is quite fascinating as well, but a bit less involving for me. That's why i have very high expectations for the Z1000 as well

 

[kool bubba ice]

I'm chomping at the bit.. I want to know how their detail, resolve, speed, & clarity compare.. Only you have owned both the HD800 & the DT48A.. All eyes are on you my friend..)
 
Quote:

I will in a few days... Stay tuned. 
 

 

[shamu144]

So here finally follows my comparative review between the DT48A below fitted with E pads and the HD800.
 

 
 
Please always keep in mind those are my impressions, in my system and with my ears. Of course, and as always, YMMV. Tracks used for critical listening were:
 
Leonard Cohen, Essentials, Tower Of Song
Madeleine Peyroux, Dreamland, La vie en rose
Diana Krall, Live in Paris, A case of you
Cannonball Adderley, Somethin' Else, Autumn,
Cranberries, No need to argue, No need to argue
Pink Floyd, DSOTM, Time
Dragonetti, Works for double bass, Duo for cello and double bass
Paco de Lucia, Concierto de Aranjuez, first movement
2L, demo tracks, North Country II (24/96)
 
My system is currently composed of the Lavry DA11 only, fed by a Hiface async USB device with Oyaide DR-510 coaxial cable. The Lavry is plugged into a PS Audio Duet Center with a Shunyata Sidewinder CX power cord. I have also been able to use for the occasion my trusted LD mkIII, with Mullard M8100 and Sovtek 6H30PI. It was connected to AC through a Siltech SPX20 power cable.
 
The HD800 are fully burnt in, on a loan from a friend. I also had a SE Cardas cable to try with the HD800. They do not appear to be that difficult to drive, with an excellent sensitivity. Out of the Lavry, 30 out of 56 on the volume knob was more than enough to provide a loud listening level.
 
I will not comment on the build quality of the HD800, everything has already been said about those. They are also very comfortable, and easy to adjust to get the best listening position.
 
So let's start with its most remarkable attribute, the soundstage... It is wide, deep, extends well around the ears, images slighlty in front of us, with a rather good focus and no weird echo effect as I was fearing a la K701. The soundstage is indeed very enjoyeable. But... Every recording tend to be presented through the HD800 wide soundstage in the very same way, which resulted extremely boring to me. One fits them all. A studio or live recording will have the same positioning in front of you, no matter how the recording was mic'ed. They do not share the DT48's ability with a good source to portray totally different ambiance and soundstage distances depending on the recording.
 
Regarding the tonal balance, I would describe them as rather cold with the stock cable and out of the Lavry, while providing a somehow smooth midrange and tight and controlled bass. However, I suspect synergy do indeed play a large role there to get the best out of them. I had surprisingly good results with my LD mkIII, achieving a fuller and very balanced sound signature with excellent extension. The SE Cardas cable did also tamed the higher frequencies and provided a more full bodied midrange. I find the K701 for example much hotter in the trebles, and can not understand why so much fuss was made of the HD800 very slight treble enfasis, easy to remove with proper component matching.
 
The HD800 are fast, there is no doubt about that...But they are also much thinner sounding than the DT48. Notes through the HD800 lack weight and density. The DT48 are at least as fast as those, while providing a much fuller and realistic sound. The HD800 still sound like a headphone, artifical, in the sense that they force your brain to recreate the experience of the original sound. The DT48 just make the music flow, with such ease and in a natural way, that I find them extremely relaxing in comparison.

But for me, and at this stage, the major HD800 flaws are the followings:
 
The lack of harmonic richness and continuity makes the HD800 sound dry and artifical. You get fundamentals of notes and the first harmonics, then it suddenly stops lacking decay. A bit like if music was played in the deepest space and lowest harmonic were unable to propagate through the missing air to reach your ears... Violins do sound completeley off with the HD800. That makes for an uninvolving and unrealistic experience.
 
Worst, that lack of decay also isolates each instrument from others. They do not interact together and you can almost perceive them as completely separated and not even performing the same recording. Like having a multitrack mix, in which each instrument would have been recorded on a different track and different location, and everything mixed together in the final production stage.
 
The HD800 transparency is easily bettered by the DT48A, and I would dare to say even by the DT48E. It is especially noticeable with reverb effects in studio or live recordings, or even through midrange details on voices.
 
Overall, I did not find listening through the HD800 an enjoyeable experience, but rather unnatural and artifical. They certainly have some technical merits and at least, have a completely unique sound to them, but are too unmusical for my tastes. And that is without even considering their price tag.

Unexpectedly, the DT48A more than holds their own against the new Sennheiser flagship IMHO. Not bad for a 73 years old headphone, don't you think?

 

[Soaa-]

 
Quote:

So here finally follows my comparative review between the DT48A below fitted with E pads and the HD800.

 
Thanks; that was quite informative. Let the flame wars begin.
 
I'm surprised at how cold you describe the HD 800 to be. People complain about the DT 48 being cold but not the HD 800? I guess paying more for something alters perception.

 

[kool bubba ice]

DT48S NAGRA VS HE6
 
This still a work in progress. I will write my final impressions after the HE6 leave my home. To evaluate both my DT48S & HE6, I used my Yamaha receiver. If I used my GP V9 amp I would have had to use my ohm adapter which neuters the NAGRA's sound. Admittedly, HE6 is under powered with my Yamaha, so the NAGRA already has a advantage. I will still use the HE6 with my V9 for my final write up for the loaner thread.

It's hard to compare/contrast these two headphones. The DT48S is already very un conventional, & they are strictly used for professional applications, while the HE6 was made for the audiophile. The HE6 is a state of the art Orthodynamic headphone, meaning they are planar based. This gives them a immediate edge over my NAGRA's in terms of naturalism of the sound, smoothness, & effortless audio reproduction.

The HE6 is surprisingly more neutral & transparent then I thought they would be. I expected a 'fun' & colored headphone. So, this makes this even harder. The first thing I noticed about the HE6 is their ability to reproduce a totally black black ground. Instruments truly appear & disappear with a delicate & realistic portrayal of the decay of the notes.

The NAGRA's in comparison offers a more 'grey' blackground. Instrument decay isn't as exquisite but good none the less. Will need more listening to time to be sure.

The HE6 mid range also wowed me. The most natural mid range I ever heard. Tonally rich, full, with a hint of warmth.. Very smooth delivery. Detail is high but glosses over minor audio nuances.

The HE6 mid range sound a bit recessed compared to the DT48. I feel the NAGRA's mid range is more authentic & life like in re producing the human voice. Mid range is full & robust, more 3D like, but sound just a tad thin compared to the tonally rich HE6 mids. The NAGRA's mids are ruthless in revealing every detail in the vocalist.. The NAGRA's mid range is a clear winner in the detail department, albeit the HE6 have a bit more lower mid presence. The NAGRA mids also offer a higher sense of clarity, but sound a bit dry & analytical in comparison.
 
The HE6 share a ot of the same characteristics.. But the more I listen to it, the more I yearn for the DT48 NAGRA.. The HE6 is pretty neutral but still a bit too much tonally rich with a bit of warmth.. Live instruments that are naturally rich sounds more realistic then the DT48, but the DT48 is more authentic & stays consistent with all instruments.. Finger snapping.. Drums.. Tambourine among others... Sound too rich IMO, & the drums feel a bit plastic at times.. The NAGRA's do a better job at striping away layer upon layer of acoustic string instruments. The HE6 is more like a lump, but is more articulate in doing so, & more pleasurable, but lacked the rawness of the acoustics & the authenticity of each individual string being sprung.
 
For the long run I'd prefer the DT48 timbre reproduction over the HE6.. I feel the NAGRA also has better instrument separation & is a bit faster.. The HE6 is much cleaner.. & has much lower distortion.. Low level resolve is incredible on the HE6.. & the blackness is like a void.. Instruments & voices just pop out of thin air then slowly fade into the blackness.. Mids are more detailed when I used my V9/oppo83 combo.. But the NAGRA still betters it in that area along with clarity.. Detail in general is tough to call. I'd give the edge to the NAGRA.. But the HE6 is under powered.. I could see it being more detailed then the NAGRA, even better separation with a good power amp.. The HE6 is surprisingly transparent & well balanced, but leans to the rich side too much. It's like getting too much of your favorite candy. After a while you get tired of it.
 
I still think the NAGRA's SS is more coherent with greater focus.. Imaging is tough to call.. The HE6 SS is pretty 3d while the NAGRAS are pretty flat.. Both do a good job of 3d imaging of instruments.. I'd say the NAGRA more so...The NAGRA just digs deeper. Much like Shamu & the HD800. The HE6 sound stage doesn't change much if any depending on the recording, which I found disappointing.
 
In the end.. The NAGRAS are clearly the winner in lack of color, instrument authenticity, Neutrality, & life like & balanced presentation.. Hard to say which is better since the HE6 is underpowered.. But the NAGRA clearly isn't out classed as of the gear I used. & with my gear is easily on par if not better with the gear I used..
 
Characteristics like speed. detail. Clarity. Resolve. (in general) Separation could probably better the NAGRA if the HE6 was driven on a good power amp like the Carey Warp used, or some high octane mono blocks. Even on my V9 I had to crank the volume near max to get a good listening experience.
 
I didn't use my receivers terminals out.. Too paranoid. Didn't want to risk it... But the V9 really did improve with the V9/oppo83 combo. Noise floor, & blackness is easily the best I heard.. Very, very low distortion really brought out low level resolve that the Nagra's strained to pull out.. It was like getting sucker punched but in a good way.. Instruments & voices would just appear from anywhere, without any indication it was coming. Truly a stunning experience.
 
In the end.. The NAGRA is better or at the very least on par with a state of the art, top of the line Ortho. I won't claim victory for the NAGRA's. Wouldn't be fair until I hear the HE6 properly & fully amped.. So, the grade is of incomplete..

 

[kool bubba ice]

Great write up.. I hope Jipod doesn't see this.. He claims the DT48E was so bad compared to his HD800 he couldn't listen to the DT48 for more then 10 seconds.. You are a brave man.. I respect your guts & integrity.. Good review..
Quote:

So here finally follows my comparative review between the DT48A below fitted with E pads and the HD800.
 

 
 
Please always keep in mind those are my impressions, in my system and with my ears. Of course, and as always, YMMV. Tracks used for critical listening were:
 
Leonard Cohen, Essentials, Tower Of Song
Madeleine Peyroux, Dreamland, La vie en rose
Diana Krall, Live in Paris, A case of you
Cannonball Adderley, Somethin' Else, Autumn,
Cranberries, No need to argue, No need to argue
Pink Floyd, DSOTM, Time
Dragonetti, Works for double bass, Duo for cello and double bass
Paco de Lucia, Concierto de Aranjuez, first movement
2L, demo tracks, North Country II (24/96)
 
My system is currently composed of the Lavry DA11 only, fed by a Hiface async USB device with Oyaide DR-510 coaxial cable. The Lavry is plugged into a PS Audio Duet Center with a Shunyata Sidewinder CX power cord. I have also been able to use for the occasion my trusted LD mkIII, with Mullard M8100 and Sovtek 6H30PI. It was connected to AC through a Siltech SPX20 power cable.
 
The HD800 are fully burnt in, on a loan from a friend. I also had a SE Cardas cable to try with the HD800. They do not appear to be that difficult to drive, with an excellent sensitivity. Out of the Lavry, 30 out of 56 on the volume knob was more than enough to provide a loud listening level.
 
I will not comment on the build quality of the HD800, everything has already been said about those. They are also very comfortable, and easy to adjust to get the best listening position.
 
So let's start with its most remarkable attribute, the soundstage... It is wide, deep, extends well around the ears, images slighlty in front of us, with a rather good focus and no weird echo effect as I was fearing a la K701. The soundstage is indeed very enjoyeable. But... Every recording tend to be presented through the HD800 wide soundstage in the very same way, which resulted extremely boring to me. One fits them all. A studio or live recording will have the same positioning in front of you, no matter how the recording was mic'ed. They do not share the DT48's ability with a good source to portray totally different ambiance and soundstage distances depending on the recording.
 
Regarding the tonal balance, I would describe them as rather cold with the stock cable and out of the Lavry, while providing a somehow smooth midrange and tight and controlled bass. However, I suspect synergy do indeed play a large role there to get the best out of them. I had surprisingly good results with my LD mkIII, achieving a fuller and very balanced sound signature with excellent extension. The SE Cardas cable did also tamed the higher frequencies and provided a more full bodied midrange. I find the K701 for example much hotter in the trebles, and can not understand why so much fuss was made of the HD800 very slight treble enfasis, easy to remove with proper component matching.
 
The HD800 are fast, there is no doubt about that...But they are also much thinner sounding than the DT48. Notes through the HD800 lack weight and density. The DT48 are at least as fast as those, while providing a much fuller and realistic sound. The HD800 still sound like a headphone, artifical, in the sense that they force your brain to recreate the experience of the original sound. The DT48 just make the music flow, with such ease and in a natural way, that I find them extremely relaxing in comparison.

But for me, and at this stage, the major HD800 flaws are the followings:
 
The lack of harmonic richness and continuity makes the HD800 sound dry and artifical. You get fundamentals of notes and the first harmonics, then it suddenly stops lacking decay. A bit like if music was played in the deepest space and lowest harmonic were unable to propagate through the missing air to reach your ears... Violins do sound completeley off with the HD800. That makes for an uninvolving and unrealistic experience.
 
Worst, that lack of decay also isolates each instrument from others. They do not interact together and you can almost perceive them as completely separated and not even performing the same recording. Like having a multitrack mix, in which each instrument would have been recorded on a different track and different location, and everything mixed together in the final production stage.
 
The HD800 transparency is easily bettered by the DT48A, and I would dare to say even by the DT48E. It is especially noticeable with reverb effects in studio or live recordings, or even through midrange details on voices.
 
Overall, I did not find listening through the HD800 an enjoyeable experience, but rather unnatural and artifical. They certainly have some technical merits and at least, have a completely unique sound to them, but are too unmusical for my tastes. And that is without even considering their price tag.

Unexpectedly, the DT48A more than holds their own against the new Sennheiser flagship IMHO. Not bad for a 73 years old headphone, don't you think?

 

[mobbaddict]

Great posts, very informative. Your impressions reflect mine Shamu. Is the DT48 also darker or is it just a matter of soundstage and decay vs the HD800?

 

[REB]

wow, i must confess i'm now less in a hurry than ever to get a hd800.

 

[lejaz]

I'm wanting to try the dt48a one day!

  I only have heard the 48E. Other headphones I've tried recently sound so strange when you switch from the dt48. The k702 sounds even brighter than I thought it was when you switch over from the dt48! and others also sound very colored, each in its own way. The DF  still seems to be the closest in terms of 'flatness', but it sounds very different because of the diffuse field eq. 

 

[shamu144]

Well, it really depends what people exactly mean by cold. I was basically refering to the slightly tilted treble of the HD800, but their midrange for example is rather smooth, although at the same time, thin and dry sounding (no decay) if that makes sense. The overall experience is surely uninvolving for me. On the other side, I could understand people finding the DT48 cold or sterile because they are incredibly fast, resolving, and uncolored, with a very unconventional bass response. It really depends on what you are looking for in a headphone.
Quote:

 
I'm surprised at how cold you describe the HD 800 to be. People complain about the DT 48 being cold but not the HD 800? I guess paying more for something alters perception.

Thanks. However, we all understand the DT48 is not for everyone. But for those who are looking for a true uncolored experience, they might very well be the ultimate headphone. 
 
Quote:

Great write up.. I hope Jipod doesn't see this.. He claims the DT48E was so bad compared to his HD800 he couldn't listen to the DT48 for more then 10 seconds.. You are a brave man.. I respect your guts & integrity.. Good review..

Are you refering to the HD800. That would be great to read some of your reflections on those.
 
The DT48 are certainly darker in that they do not have any treble enfasis if that is what you meant.
 
Quote:

Great posts, very informative. Your impressions reflect mine Shamu. Is the DT48 also darker or is it just a matter of soundstage and decay vs the HD800?

KBI, I enjoyed a lot reading your HE6 review. Those orthos certainly look very tempting and your description seem to indicate they are surprisingly close to the DT48 sound signature. I don't know why, but I get the feeling that especially the LCD2 could be a very serious upgrade candidate from the DT48...