[csroc]

I don't think the 650 sounds muddy and veiled at all. It's not a bright sound, it doesn't have any exaggerated highs like or upper mids but it's got plenty of treble extension and detail throughout the frequency range.

 

[tinseljim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by coredump /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think the HD650 need to be compared to the HD800 to sound muddy and veiled. I'm hoping the Compass might help remove some of the mud.

True enough but it was all the more obvious compared to something more neutral. I have to say that every time I hear them they don't tend to impress me. Maybe I'm missing something?

I've heard that Bob Ludwig masters with the 650s. I wonder if he'll change to the 800s...

 

[tinseljim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by csroc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think the 650 sounds muddy and veiled at all. It's not a bright sound, it doesn't have any exaggerated highs like or upper mids but it's got plenty of treble extension and detail throughout the frequency range.

Hmmm...i still think they do. But it may depend what we're used to, what our house sound is. My 'home stereo' is a pair of studio monitors that are quite revealing and detailed and compared to them the 650s sounded on the muddy side and lack some detail in the highs. I'm not really saying they're bad, I quite like them, but compared to revealing headphones/monitors they sound less revealing. If I hadn't heard the 800s I would be leaning towards getting some for something to contrast the Grados.

 

[csroc]

My home speakers have a low resonance cabinet and have a very flat frequency response. I find the 650s don't emphasize anything in the higher frequencies but I don't find that makes them muddy or lacking in detail, they're just not as in your face about it as my AD900s or other even brighter headphones (Grado 325s come to mind). Having less treble doesn't necessarily mean something is less revealing or detailed, similarly the opposite is also the case although often many people will refer to anything bright as sounding very detailed.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

I tend to agree that high resolution speakers outperform the 650's, that's very true with my system but the 650's aren't muddy nor are they rolled off in the treble to a great extent IMO.

The difference to me is rather subtle but marked, granted if the 650's did better than planar/ribbons I'd be wondering what is wrong with the ribbons. These differences aren't huge and it would serve the reader better to remark on the degree of difference otherwise generalizations will be taken as fact and that is helpful to no one.

The 800's are a fresh start, new technology. I'd be worried if they didn't outperform the previous flagship of the brand. The voicing thankfully having been readjusted towards Neutral (or closer to it). Another factor that I think needs discussion and may not have been taken into account is burn in time for the 800's. I bet they need quite a few hours to settle down as the 650's did. I found the treble of the 650's to be rather annoying for the first 200 hours and somewhat forward only to recede into the background for a length of time. The treble improves near the end and improves further with a cable change (silver plated copper). The cable change brought a little more sparkle to the upper mids and treble region vs the stock cable. The cost of these cables however for that tiny improvement has to be judged by the end user whether or not the improvement in sound is worth the cost. I'm with mbd (not his attitude towards cable makers, that's a little extreme) but I feel a decent DIY cable is the best compromise. I'm also of the belief that the cable is the last thing anyone should look at for an upgrade. Source and amp are to be taken care of first. IMHO at least.

Peete.

 

[dBs]

BTW the 30 remaining have completely sold out. Next batch of the Compass will be around the end of March according to the web site:

"I plan to ship 30 upgraded units (old face and rear plates) early March.
Now all sale out.

Final version is planned to be shipped end of March."

 

[csroc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif I tend to agree that high resolution speakers outperform the 650's, that's very true with my system but the 650's aren't muddy nor are they rolled off in the treble to a great extent IMO.

I'll take speakers over headphones anyway generally. High resolution speakers vs high res headphones too. Just a different listening experience.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Quote:

Originally Posted by csroc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll take speakers over headphones anyway generally. High resolution speakers vs high res headphones too. Just a different listening experience.

Absolutely.......but the time I have to let my system really rip is far and few between these days so the head fi system is the next best alternative. Both methods of listening have attributes specific to their use neither one being a big advantage over the other. It just depends on what you prefer. I'm with you csroc...the traditional method I'll pick every time if given the opportunity but the head fi experience is a pretty good second

Peete.

 

[Joeoboe]

I agree Peete and csroc... speaker listening is superior... and I am surprised at how far headphone listening has come. It is a valid high-end experience these days... which is nice for my neighbors!

 

[mbd2884]

Even the HD800s can't compare to speakers. Having separate 10" woofer for the low octaves, two 6" woofers for mids and one tweeter and a super tweeter. Yeah we're talking 5 dedicated cones for different spectrums of sound compared to one tiny driver trying to reproduce all sound. There is just no comparison. This is my dream tower, the subs on the sides, the rest of the speakers out front, but the speaker housing is very deep so the two mid woofers are directed upwards instead of forward. Just in my head for someday future, no company mentioned, sorry.

I think even cheap speakers will outperforum the HD800, its the detail and intimacy that a cheap speaker can't match though, but for overall enjoyment of sound, music, soundstage, power, and fun, tone accuracy across the spectrum, yeah even my crummy system will do this better than headphones. I don't have an incredible music system like you all.

I just have a Kenwood Receiver connected to the Computer and a Denon CD player, and two JBL speakers that are now a decade old, and if I could just let them do what they do best, I would listen over my headphone rig any day. But old people, and scrooges in the apartment would surely have letters sent from the landlord coming my way. Previously was in a apartment building directed at other students, angry nerds from McGill also were upset, hence my journey in headphones so far.

So when people start looking for the perfect sound, reading reviews of the HD800, or even the most ridiculous PS-1000, I can't help but laugh.

Headphones are definitely fun, more private, and an individual experience speakers can't match, but its definitely not the place to look for your perfect sound. As someone else said, with speakers there is that element not even the most expensive headphones, K1000, statics, whatever can't provide, the feeling. Speakers let you feel the music, the bass, the resonances. Even crappy speakers can let you do that. So as much fun it is to read opinions about comparison between headphones and speakers, its also dumbass, no real point IMO.

 

[csroc]

I have to agree. Even inexpensive speakers can provide enjoyment missing from headphones, but personally there's little enjoyment that headphones provide that speakers can't. I especially like that I don't have to wear my speakers in any fashion and I'm not tethered. This is why I have Audioengine A2s playing most of my computer sourced music as background music. They're basically on whenever I'm home and awake. I prefer that to wearing any of my headphones all day.

 

[decayed.cell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Speakers let you feel the music, the bass, the resonances. Even crappy speakers can let you do that.

I daresay decent headphones let you feel the music too, just to a lesser extent. Can you not feel a powerful kickdrum in a properly amplified half decent headphone?

 

[tinseljim]

"I tend to agree that high resolution speakers outperform the 650's, that's very true with my system but the 650's aren't muddy nor are they rolled off in the treble to a great extent IMO."

Yes i think that the differences aren't massive BUT they are a lot bigger than I was expecting, diminishing returns and all that. The hd800s are three times better (given relative prices) but i would say about ten times better in audio terms. Sound crazy? Well maybe. But i'm not easily duped by hype (although I do have a zero

).

As far as burn-in the rep said 24hrs. Yep that's right a mere days worth. Should we believe that?

As far as speaker vs. headphones i would say the opposite. You get much better value for money with headphones. I'd be amazed to hear a speaker setup that sounded as good as my grados right now. Even the JVC marshmallows sound better than speaker systems costing 20 times more. seriously you must be joking that a $100 stereo from wal-mart out performs $300 headphones? no way!

 

[Megalith]

Cleary I haven't been on this forum long enough, but I'm surprised to see members preferring speakers over headphones here.

I just recently moved into headphones because I was getting tired of having to deal with the effects of my room. My goal was to set up a neutral system---and for something like that, aren't headphones better/easier?

 

[paara]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megalith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cleary I haven't been on this forum long enough, but I'm surprised to see members preferring speakers over headphones. I just recently moved into headphones because I was getting tired of having to deal with the effects of my room. My goal was to set up a neutral system---and for something like that, aren't headphones better/easier?

x2

The high end HPs I have heard have been much better then any high end speaker system I have listend to.

There are just too many variables to make a speaker system superior to a high-end phone.

Speakers need crossovers, needs to match elements, has room resonance/coloring to worry about +++ All of this degrade/affect the sound.

At least that is what I think

(But one major difference is that speakers are much more robust and can handle it if you drop the heavy Nakamichi DRAGON-DAC on them. I belive this is important to some)