[emertxe]

   
Its not impossible, or even hard, to hear a difference in that area. Lots of music has no information that low but some does. And not just electronic music, orchestral stuff that uses very large drums will have information at 20-30Hz as will large pipe organs. You can both hear it and feel it. Fire up a 20Hz test tone and tell me you don't hear that. It can make a big difference when it is rolled off substantially. I notice right away how rolled off a headphone is in the sub-bass. I've found that even 5Hz can be heard although its pretty much just the movement of air that you're hearing but even that can have an effect on whether you hear the proper sub-bass atmosphere that's meant to be on the track. Alright, 5Hz will obviously have a very small, essentially unnoticeable, effect but I think you get my point. You can roll off the signal at 20-30Hz thinking you're not missing anything but for music that uses those frequencies you are in fact losing part of the atmosphere and physical impact that was supposed to be there.

 
Well, I've heard at least two headphones which can reach down to 20 or even 10Hz flat... But honestly, I haven't noticed any real advantage against my HD800. These headphones sounded rather muffled in comparison... Too dominant bass over the rest of spectrum. Maybe I am listening to the wrong music. Or maybe I am just not a basshead. I prefered HD800's bass over anything I've heard so far tbh. But that's just me.

 

[devhen]

 
Well, I've heard at least two headphones which can reach down to 20 or even 10Hz flat... But honestly, I haven't noticed any real advantage against my HD800. These headphones sounded rather muffled in comparison... Too dominant bass over the rest of spectrum. Maybe I am listening to the wrong music. Or maybe I am just not a basshead. I prefered HD800's bass over anything I've heard so far tbh. But that's just me.

 
I hear ya and that matches my experience for the most part. After getting used to slightly rolled off sub-bass I sometimes prefer it because it stays out of the way while still being there enough to hear and notice. My DT1350s are flat all the way to 10Hz and they can sound a bit muddy in comparison to my other cans but I do consider them more neutral in sub-bass and when the recording is done well I usually prefer their sub-bass. I think a lot of stuff is probably recorded with slightly higher sub-bass than it should have because of how common low end roll-off has always been in headphones and small monitors. And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of audiophiles are like you and prefer a slight roll-off like the HD800 has. Significant roll-off, now that's another thing completely.

 

[darrenyeats]

In theory you shouldn't be able to hear <20Hz. Feel yes, hear no - at least not before you damage your hearing. Be careful with that. AFAIK if you hear any audible sound with a pure tone lower than 20Hz you are really hearing distortion products. However, I accept you could feel air moving even if you can't hear something.

 

[devhen]

  In theory you shouldn't be able to hear <20Hz. Feel yes, hear no - at least not before you damage your hearing. Be careful with that. AFAIK if you hear any audible sound with a pure tone lower than 20Hz you are really hearing distortion products. However, I accept you could feel air moving even if you can't hear something.

 
Yep you just hear the air moving and in some cases distortion.

 

[JWahl]

   
 
 
I'm not sure it's useful to continually compare the K712's with the HD800's, which cost 3 times as much.
 
___________________
 
 
I'll have to disagree with you on the bass issue; I think the bass on the K712 is very much in the neutral range.

I don't see why not.  If anything it simply highlights the value of the K712.  Like I said earlier, the HD800 is clearly a superior performing headphone.  IMO maybe 20-30% better while costing 300% more.
We must also take into account individuals preferred presentation.  The HD800 is still my favorite headphone I've owned but I find myself enjoying the K712 more with alot of my music, which makes me especially interested in the upcoming K812 if the K712 is an indication of the general direction that AKG is taking.
 
I am by no means a professional studio mastering technician and have no need for the most absolutely accurate headphone.  I am simply looking for what will make my music most enjoyable for me.  The K712 delivers a lot of musical enjoyment for the money.  The HD800 does as well, but for a much higher price premium. 

 

[tdockweiler]

K712...I like it. So far so good. Doesn't sound dark at all to me.
I'll hold off on any very early impressions until i've listened to it a few hours.
 
Oh and right now it doesn't sound all that much different than my modded Q701. Don't hate me.
Perhaps more forward in the low mids and slightly fuller sounding.
 
The K712 is most definitely a more forward sounding headphone than the Q701 to me. Q701 sounds smoother in almost every area. At least my pair.
Well my Q701 probably has 10,000 hours of use and maybe this only has 1000

 
So far harsh/bright recordings (in the upper mids/treble) sound a little worse on the K712.

 

[emertxe]

  The K712 is most definitely a more forward sounding headphone than the Q701 to me.
 
So far harsh/bright recordings (in the upper mids/treble) sound a little worse on the K712.

 

 

[tdockweiler]

   
 

 
 
Dude, yes way. There is some stuff on the K712 that sounds more distant/less forward. Some area in the upper mids, but yet harsh/bright recordings are worse on the K712.
Maybe the K712 is just less forgiving of bad recordings.
 
Remember, I'm still early into listening.
 
My Q701 is really smooth sounding and that's no joke. The K712 doesn't seem excessively warm. Definitely not forgiving to my ears.
 
Hey, maybe the pads need to be warmed up. I'll go turn on the heat!
 
Oh and right now the modded Q701 is probably bassier. Yeah dude! That Headroom graph is nuts!
 
EDIT: SOME female vocals sound more distant, but that's not a complaint. Guess it's either better soundstage depth or less emphasis in those specific frequencies.
 
BTW when I mention the differences, they're very slight. Not a night and day difference.
 
EDIT 2: Some songs sound perhaps noticeably clearer on the K712, but will need to go back and a/b them more.
 
EDIT 3: Pretty sure the K712 driver is more resolving/clearer than the cheap Q701 driver. Perhaps hand selected. Sounds crystal clear with a small selection of music. There are still some subtle details in songs that are only audible on the Q701 but not the K712 (due to pad differences I think). I don't think anyone cares about ultra subtle details you'd never care about. I do! Not going to try Q701 pads on the K712 because I already want a K712.
 
The K712 sounds pretty accurate overall. It honestly doesn't sound that warm, but just accurate and that warmth varies between recording a lot.
 
K712 is definitely better than the Annie to my ears.
 
After maybe an hour of listening the biggest difference to my ears between the K712 and modded Q701 is how much more crystal clear some tracks sound on the K712 Pro. None of my music sounds that dramatically different between the two and why should it? Remember I have the modded Q701.
 
LOL after maybe 1 1/2 hours I finally found one of my harsh/bright tracks that sounds slightly smoother on the K712. I think some range of the upper mids sounds recessed slightly. Not like this is a bad thing. Tracks with harsh/fatiguing treble sound a bit worse. What

 
 
There ARE a few tracks where it feels like things are way too distant sounding than before.
 
Don't think for one minute i'm being negative. I'm really liking this but I expected it to be much different than this!

 

[JWahl]

  K712...I like it. So far so good. Doesn't sound dark at all to me.
I'll hold off on any very early impressions until i've listened to it a few hours.
 
Oh and right now it doesn't sound all that much different than my modded Q701. Don't hate me.
Perhaps more forward in the low mids and slightly fuller sounding.
 
The K712 is most definitely a more forward sounding headphone than the Q701 to me. Q701 sounds smoother in almost every area. At least my pair.
Well my Q701 probably has 10,000 hours of use and maybe this only has 1000

 
So far harsh/bright recordings (in the upper mids/treble) sound a little worse on the K712.

Thanks for the sanity check.  At first I thought it was just a good synergy between the K712 and my Soloist but it appears that may not be the case.  Though I do still think the Soloist has a good synergy with it.  Others have reported the same synergy with other 700 series headphones so it doesn't surprise me.  I actually had to use parametric EQ to tone down the 2khz and around 10khz by about 2-3db.  I remember preferring my AD2000X to the Annies slightly but I don't think that would be the case with the K712.  And I got mine for $385 so for the money it's really awesome.
 
EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: I definitely think the highs are probably the biggest weakness of the K712.  They have a slight tinge of artificiality.  This could be in part the Modi dac though.  And for proper perspective, my previous headphone was the HD800 so of course I'm used to very good quality highs.

 

[emertxe]

  EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: I definitely think the highs are probably the biggest weakness of the K712.  They have a slight tinge of artificiality.  This could be in part the Modi dac though.  And for proper perspective, my previous headphone was the HD800 so of course I'm used to very good quality highs.

 
In my experience, upper mids to treble are still quite artificial-sounding... Though, significantly more realistic than on Q701. At the same time, more than significantly less realistic than with HD800.

 

[emertxe]

   
 
Dude, yes way. There is some stuff on the K712 that sounds more distant/less forward. Some area in the upper mids, but yet harsh/bright recordings are worse on the K712.
Maybe the K712 is just less forgiving of bad recordings.
 
Remember, I'm still early into listening.
 
My Q701 is really smooth sounding and that's no joke. The K712 doesn't seem excessively warm. Definitely not forgiving to my ears.
 
Hey, maybe the pads need to be warmed up. I'll go turn on the heat!
 
Oh and right now the modded Q701 is probably bassier. Yeah dude! That Headroom graph is nuts!
 
EDIT: SOME female vocals sound more distant, but that's not a complaint. Guess it's either better soundstage depth or less emphasis in those specific frequencies.
 
BTW when I mention the differences, they're very slight. Not a night and day difference.
 
EDIT 2: Some songs sound perhaps noticeably clearer on the K712, but will need to go back and a/b them more.
 
EDIT 3: Pretty sure the K712 driver is more resolving/clearer than the cheap Q701 driver. Perhaps hand selected. Sounds crystal clear with a small selection of music. There are still some subtle details in songs that are only audible on the Q701 but not the K712 (due to pad differences I think). I don't think anyone cares about ultra subtle details you'd never care about. I do! Not going to try Q701 pads on the K712 because I already want a K712.
 
The K712 sounds pretty accurate overall. It honestly doesn't sound that warm, but just accurate and that warmth varies between recording a lot.
 
K712 is definitely better than the Annie to my ears.
 
After maybe an hour of listening the biggest difference to my ears between the K712 and modded Q701 is how much more crystal clear some tracks sound on the K712 Pro. None of my music sounds that dramatically different between the two and why should it? Remember I have the modded Q701.
 
LOL after maybe 1 1/2 hours I finally found one of my harsh/bright tracks that sounds slightly smoother on the K712. I think some range of the upper mids sounds recessed slightly. Not like this is a bad thing. Tracks with harsh/fatiguing treble sound a bit worse. What

 
 
There ARE a few tracks where it feels like things are way too distant sounding than before.
 
Don't think for one minute i'm being negative. I'm really liking this but I expected it to be much different than this!

 
Thanks for explanation of your view... Interesting that you don't find K712 Pro a bit artificially warm. Their midbass area to mids is pronounced to my ears, it makes the headphone a bit veiled. Very good for some rock and especially metal, also some electronic genres. Not a good thing for acoustic, pop rock or classical.

 

[JWahl]

   
Thanks for explanation of your view... Interesting that you don't find K712 Pro a bit artificially warm. Their midbass area to mids is pronounced to my ears, it makes the headphone a bit veiled. Very good for some rock and especially metal, also some electronic genres. Not a good thing for acoustic, pop rock or classical.

I can see what you are trying to say.  It does seem to have a slight effect of some vocals, usually female, being a bit more distant while the lower mids and midbass are a bit forward.  At least in comarison with the HD800.

 

[tdockweiler]

I could easily live with the K712 Pro. If I had heard both the modded Q701 and K712 I don't know if I'd pay the $150 premium on the K712 over the modded (only) Q701. Maybe for the headband if the Q701 bothered me.
If I didn't feel comfortable modding the Q701 and wanted more bass than what the stock Q701 had, then I'd probably just buy the K712. It's obvious that the K712 is a no-brainer if you don't like the upper mids of the Q701.
 
Some music sounds smoother on the Q701 and others it's the K712. Of course these tracks will usually sound bad on both. Depends on what frequencies are emphasized I guess.
 
I think it's wrong to say which is better, modded Q701 or K712. Depends on what you like. Both are very good.
 
To my ears there's not more than a 5% difference (yet) between MYYYYYY modded Q701 and K712.
 
Maybe I could hear more of a difference If had thousands worth of HD tracks and $1000 gear etc.
 
BTW I do love the Q701 for female vocals. I have absolutely zero issues with them on the Q701 unless it's a bad recording. They usually don't seem as forward sometimes on the K712.
 
Honestly if I did buy the K712 Pro (probably won't..can't afford it) I'd also keep my Q701.
 
I would definitely buy a pair at $300-$325.
 
This extra sound clarity is really nice though. Maybe nobody can hear the difference but it's at random really. The K712 really doesn't sound any warmer than my modded Q701.
 
K712 doesn't sound remotely dark to me. The Annie was for sure. One idea I had was that maybe my Q701 is warmer/bassier than some other pairs even stock. Doubt it.

 

[emertxe]

  I could easily live with the K712 Pro. If I had heard both the modded Q701 and K712 I don't know if I'd pay the $150 premium on the K712 over the modded (only) Q701. Maybe for the headband if the Q701 bothered me.
If I didn't feel comfortable modding the Q701 and wanted more bass than what the stock Q701 had, then I'd probably just buy the K712. It's obvious that the K712 is a no-brainer if you don't like the upper mids of the Q701.
 
Some music sounds smoother on the Q701 and others it's the K712. Of course these tracks will usually sound bad on both. Depends on what frequencies are emphasized I guess.
 
I think it's wrong to say which is better, modded Q701 or K712. Depends on what you like. Both are very good.
 
To my ears there's not more than a 5% difference (yet) between MYYYYYY modded Q701 and K712.
 
Maybe I could hear more of a difference If had thousands worth of HD tracks and $1000 gear etc.
 
BTW I do love the Q701 for female vocals. I have absolutely zero issues with them on the Q701 unless it's a bad recording. They usually don't seem as forward sometimes on the K712.
 
Honestly if I did buy the K712 Pro (probably won't..can't afford it) I'd also keep my Q701.
 
I would definitely buy a pair at $300-$325.
 
This extra sound clarity is really nice though. Maybe nobody can hear the difference but it's at random really. The K712 really doesn't sound any warmer than my modded Q701.
 
K712 doesn't sound remotely dark to me. The Annie was for sure. One idea I had was that maybe my Q701 is warmer/bassier than some other pairs even stock. Doubt it.

 
In my experience, K712 Pro do not scale very much... They scale but not as much as HD800 for example. You could easily kill HD800 driving them with a weak chain but these K712 will almost always sound very good.

 

[tdockweiler]

   
Thanks for explanation of your view... Interesting that you don't find K712 Pro a bit artificially warm. Their midbass area to mids is pronounced to my ears, it makes the headphone a bit veiled. Very good for some rock and especially metal, also some electronic genres. Not a good thing for acoustic, pop rock or classical.

 
The mids are usually quite full sounding but yet there doesn't seem to be any mid-bass emphasis at all to me (unless it's bloated IN the recording). I actually think my Q701 might have more mid-bass(!). The Annie sure did seem very veiled. I wonder if some K712 Pros have the flatter pads? These pads look deeper and they're more comfortable than the old Annie pads. I always felt that maybe the reason I didn't like the Annie is due to the pads being too flat.
 
I definitely would not call these bassy, but that's a good thing. I actually think there is no way they're neutral down to 10hz or whatever. Based on memory the Annie MIGHT have had more low bass.