This statement is false....there is more and way more to discover in all knowns area, science is only a way to produce more questions or more unknowns possibilities nothing else, except accidentally and secundarily a methods to improve technically some way to operate or make things, answers are only pygmies in the giant crowd of questions....
Reality is COMPLEX, separating the bul****t and the truth is more difficult than what we all think, and ask for other means than invoking so-called "sound science"... For cables, only listening by yourself is the means, "sound science" is almost of the same useful utility than marketting...Science does not understand completely how ears operates in the musical experience, music is not sound....Your own experience cannot be replace by a law, a dogma, a rule, or by an opinion,listening is the only truth for whom who listen....
Correct. I agree partly. Without science, there would only be unfounded innovation. True. BUT! Science completely understand the ears. The problem begins when the signals enter your brain. It certainly IS possible to trick oneself into believing sound differences exist. You will REALLY hear them. Science is useful is sorting out what is brain and what is cable. That is all. Science calls this the "placebo effect" - and it is VERY real.
Psychology even has a word for this: self fulfilling prophecy = if you believe something enough, it will become fact for you. (Usually reserved for stuff like: "the world is unfair" or "I cannot make a difference in the world so I won't try" "I am smarter than other people" etc etc etc.
If someone builds a pacemaker for you: Do you want him to subjectively analyze and decide that stainless steel "just feels better" than titanium? Or that "the standard of 5mV" is crap, it runs fine on 2mV and the batteries last much longer?
Correct. I agree partly. Without science, there would only be unfounded innovation. True. BUT! Science completely understand the ears. The problem begins when the signals enter your brain. It certainly IS possible to trick oneself into believing sound differences exist. You will REALLY hear them. Science is useful is sorting out what is brain and what is cable. That is all. Science calls this the "placebo effect" - and it is VERY real.
Psychology even has a word for this: self fulfilling prophecy = if you believe something enough, it will become fact for you. (Usually reserved for stuff like: "the world is unfair" or "I cannot make a difference in the world so I won't try" "I am smarter than other people" etc etc etc.
If someone builds a pacemaker for you: Do you want him to subjectively analyze and decide that stainless steel "just feels better" than titanium? Or that "the standard of 5mV" is crap, it runs fine on 2mV and the batteries last much longer?
First science does not understand the ears completely, this is false... Second the line separating the brain and the cable is not a clear line, but a blurry one when we speaks of the difference between MUSIC and SOUND interpretation by consciouness and the brain.. Third, scientist mantra about "placebo" effect is more far away of science than astrology, it is not useful discussing subjective audio experience and experiment to speaks ALWAYS of placebo effect like a mantra....
For me, dear OP, the point was found after working in studios and having a side job when I was young in a audiophile store. I know and fully understand that sound reproduction can never be real. It is always a suspension of disbelief. A BT speaker can make you rock out to a great piece of music - whatever that may be for you. I can certainly enjoy music from a BT speaker. From a darn phone speaker too, if I must.
Here in Germany in my flat I have the complete 1977s Technics TOTL gear, most of it from my father. It certainly is no audiophile high dollar system.
"But even my wife, who knows nothing of audio SQ, will turn it on instead of listening to the TV speakers." <- Pun and play intended
First science does not understand the ears completely, this is false... Second the line separating the brain and the cable is not a clear line, but a blurry one when we speaks of the difference between MUSIC and SOUND interpretation by consciouness and the brain.. Third, scientist mantra about "placebo" effect is more far away of science than astrology....
Placebo is a very normal and understood mechanic. HOW it works may not be understood completely - but we also don't know why people believe in cable sound. But we do know it does not exist in the real, physical world outside of ones brain (like Placebo).
If you wish to discuss sound perception, it would be very wise to read a book or two. Start here: Floyd Toole: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents)
Fact is most people already enjoyed the MUSIC, they were in the music and the equipment was just to play the MUSIC. Once getting in the LOOP of reading and hoping then buying now its the equipment to play the same music but retrying to lisyen to the same music as the first time. Some will say I heard things I never heard. This is when they are into studying the sound and looking for confirmation of what was bought then layer rereading reviews to make them start looking for faults so they can get back on the buying loop. Hope you guys can enjoy the music and find new music aswell and not go broke and have to sell things and borrow hete and there..
There are three areas involved here... the physics of sound, the thresholds of human perception as they relate to the physics of sound, and the reproduction of sound with a high degree of fidelity. All three of those have been extensively studied and are understood beyond the level necessary to put together a fine sounding home audio system capable of producing sound with higher fidelity than the human ear has the ability to hear. The only part that isn't understood is subjective perception. That's because there are so many different ways that brains interpret sound, it makes it difficult to generalize. But that is a bigger issue for musicians who have to produce highly subjective art than it is sound engineers who only have to produce high fidelity sound. Reproducing sound to suit human ears is the easy part. Producing sound to please human brains is hard.
Your brain exist in the real world like mine and what there is in your brain is real too,there is no clear line separating in your brain the so call reality and the imagination or other realities, only the social consensus.... The way to invoke "placebo effect" explains nothing, and is often useful only to reject a so called "objective" experience of an other person in the field of a restricted negative isolate subjectivity, and by no means explains anything by itself....For sure i know what placebo effect is and how useful it is to intelligent doctor in medecine...
I think it's all about finding our favourite sound signature. Sometimes one headphone is enough, sometimes we need several. I went 6 years content with just 2 headphones;
The Denon AH-D5000 and AKG K702. This is why I believe we don't really need more than 2.
Don't forget that most headphones work better with better amp's/dac's and audio players.
I think you are right about two headphones being "enough". But its a hobby, so maybe 100 aren't "enough" But if a, lets say phone, has enough power and a low enough output impedance, and a built to spec AMP (chipamp or whatever) - there will be no significant difference to a different AMP/DAC. Now if you use some Shure IEMS or some 600 ohm Beyers, you may need something else than a "standard phone DAC/AMP".
There is always a difference in everything, but when is it about "better SQ" and when is it about "different SQ on same level of SQ)? Is there a "dollar value"? If yes, I would say at 200 bucks for headphones, your are 95% of the way to 4000 dollar headphones. And I fully believe that the most differences in audio come from the transducers. (and the recording quality, here I don't mean bits or bytes or formats)
There are three areas involved here... the physics of sound, the thresholds of human perception as they relate to the physics of sound, and the reproduction of sound with a high degree of fidelity. All three of those have been extensively studied and are understood beyond the level necessary to put together a fine sounding home audio system capable of producing sound with higher fidelity than the human ear has the ability to hear. The only part that isn't understood is subjective perception. That's because there are so many different ways that brains interpret sound, it makes it difficult to generalize. But that is a bigger issue for musicians who have to produce highly subjective art than it is sound engineers who only have to produce high fidelity sound. Reproducing sound is the easy part.
Thanks for the precision....But i think you are not completely right with this affirmation, something new is always possible and sometimes very simple thing are great revolution in a perfectly known field.... examples abound...
Sorry, but if you ask a question that strictly involved perception and not interpretation of sound, you can apply controls to eliminate subjective bias. If you don't want to believe that, you should find a philosopher's forum because you aren't going to get anywhere in a scientific forum.
Thanks for the precision....But i think you are not completely right with this affirmation, something new is always possible and sometimes very simple thing are great revolution in a perfectly known field.... examples abound...
The potential for a new discovery doesn't mean that there actually is something new to be discovered. The newest fundamental discoveries in sound reproduction are nearly a century old at this point. I think you're going to find that waiting for something new there is going to be a very long wait. Probably too long for you to wait to buy headphones and a player. You'd do best to operate on current scientific knowledge until something new comes along.
Your brain exist in the real world like mine and what there is in your brain is real toot,there is no clear line separating in your brain the so call reality and the imagination or other realities, only the social consensus.... The way to invoke "placebo effect" explains nothing, and is often useful only to reject a so called "objective" experience of an other person in the field of a restricted negative isolate subjectivity, and by no means explains anything by itself....For sure i know what placebo effect is and how useful it is to intelligent doctor in medecine...
Yes it does. If you look at the cable your are putting into the system, and it costs a lot of money, you will expect with bias towards "sound better". I am not immune to this! My car is faster after I wash it, also after I change the oil - until I figured out that it isn't.
Fact is most people already enjoyed the MUSIC, they were in the music and the equipment was just to play the MUSIC. Once getting in the LOOP of reading and hoping then buying now its the equipment to play the same music but retrying to lisyen to the same music as the first time. Some will say I heard things I never heard. This is when they are into studying the sound and looking for confirmation of what was bought then layer rereading reviews to make them start looking for faults so they can get back on the buying loop. Hope you guys can enjoy the music and find new music aswell and not go broke and have to sell things and borrow hete and there..
Or someone said that this gizmo really brings out clean bass - and for the first time a person is listening only to that area of music. They "hear" things that they peviously missed, because they are actually listening now, to select frequency bands etc.
I bet I can find things I haven't heard before on DSOTM (where I can tell you where the tape dropouts are by memory...) using a cheap apple earbud. Its in "how" one listens, not "with what".
So I fully agree, its about the music!
(edit: I'd have to fake augument bass response in the earbuds by pressing and cupping my hands on my ears, but hey...)
Placebo is a very normal and understood mechanic. HOW it works may not be understood completely - but we also don't know why people believe in cable sound. But we do know it does not exist in the real, physical world outside of ones brain (like Placebo).
If you wish to discuss sound perception, it would be very wise to read a book or two. Start here: Floyd Toole: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents)[/QUOTE
Some people like you say, believe in cable sound without listening, some others pretend to listening some differences, and perhaps some others listen to a real differences... To confound all 3 possibilities is not "sound science" only scientist belief....For what we know, what exist or not in the real world,this is impossible to solve without separating dogmatically the real and the not real in an absolute sense, and this is precisely the most naive opinion ...
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