[Maxx134]

The overlooked issue is not only do dacs vary in performance,
but also the analoge outputs, whether single ended or balanced,
Also play a significant role in the overall voicing of the dac.

To me this topic is like a dog chasing its tail.
Alot of spin to overlook the obvious,
that no matter how much a given person is affected by placibo,
long term listening eventually wins out and the person is left with the truth.
No amount placibo in the world is going to block the ear's hearing..

It can look like a girl but if it sounds like a man, your ears will win over any illusion.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

No comment on how DACs do or don't sound different from each other but...

that no matter how much a given person is affected by placibo,
long term listening eventually wins out and the person is left with the truth.
No amount placibo in the world is going to block the ear's hearing..

It can look like a girl but if it sounds like a man, your ears will win over any illusion.

You give me that kind of assertion and I'll show you a "long term listening" sighted listening session of two different colored, identical cables that has left its participant utterly convinced that black really does sound cooler.

The human ear can detect sound as small as an hydrogen atom hitting the eardrum, yet your brain filters it! So when naysayers say, it can't be herd, tell them, Its all in their minds.! It's a fools paradise to believe in numbers only (specs)... Instead, TRUST ONLY IN YOUR EARS.

What, as opposed to any molecule of air (be it hydrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide) hitting your eardrum?

Because that's the only way sound of any sort is conducted, y'know, by molecules hitting your eardrum :rolleyes:

 

[arnyk]

The overlooked issue is not only do dacs vary in performance,
but also the analoge outputs, whether single ended or balanced,
Also play a significant role in the overall voicing of the dac.

To me this topic is like a dog chasing its tail.
Alot of spin to overlook the obvious,
that no matter how much a given person is affected by placibo,
long term listening eventually wins out and the person is left with the truth.
No amount placibo in the world is going to block the ear's hearing..

It can look like a girl but if it sounds like a man, your ears will win over any illusion.

 
The claim that both the internal DAC circuits and analog outputs always sound different would appear to be an unfounded assertion.
 
The only evidence I've ever seen  provided to support that assertion are sighted audiophile evaluations with the 5 serious flaws that nobody seems to be able to effectively rebut.
 
Do you know of legitimate listening tests that show that both the internal DAC circuits and analog outputs always sound different?
 
Heck reliable evidence that they all sound different seems like a tough challenge - I'd settle for evidence that the simple majority of them sound different. 
 
Got any?

 

[prot]

hi all
also very interested about a serious science DACs discussion here. IIRC, Sonic Defender will organize a small (D)BT with iggy and one-two others soon. And there is a already an iggy measurements thread in the DAC section (I think).
And btw, other than (D)BT/ABX and measurements, I do not know of any other way to do this kind of stuff at least somewhat scientifically ... anyone who knows better!?

 

[Maxx134]

Haha you guys funnier than me!

Why is it when I hear "strawman" I get tempted to light a match?
Lol
Time to light a match for you to ponder:


What do you think Recording Engineers do for a living?
DEPEND ON THEIR EARS ONLY..

You guys two faced not accepting the obvious..

Couldnt you always hear your mommy calling out in a crowd? (No disrespect, just a good example).

How about snoozing in a noisy envirement yet waking at sound of your name?

The ear is the most advanced sound receptor,
and it only needs to be "trained" to pick out the nuances,
yet once you do, it now forces you to move up the ladder of components,
searching for higher enjoyment.

I only thought like you guys my first year college, then I was amazed at how the professor used massive feedback to create linear response from opamps..
Later to realize all our tools can be used to either serve and help us,
OR hamper us, which is what ideas all thruought "spund science" have..
It is usually always the person who thinks "outside the box" who can break the chains of narrow mindedness in these fields..
Yet I started out just like some hear before I moved on from electrical engineering to recording engineering..



Oh, and I moved onto different technical field since,
but main point is to keep mind open for the not so obvious.

 

[dazzerfong]

Haha you guys funnier than me!

Why is it when I hear "strawman" I get tempted to light a match?
Lol
Time to light a match for you to ponder:


What do you think Recording Engineers do for a living?
DEPEND ON THEIR EARS ONLY..

You guys two faced not accepting the obvious..

Couldnt you always hear your mommy calling out in a crowd? (No disrespect, just a good example).

How about snoozing in a noisy envirement yet waking at sound of your name?

The ear is the most advanced sound receptor,
and it only needs to be "trained" to pick out the nuances,
yet once you do, it now forces you to move up the ladder of components,
searching for higher enjoyment.

I only thought like you guys my first year college, then I was amazed at how the professor used massive feedback to create linear response from opamps..
Later to realize all our tools can be used to either serve and help us,
OR hamper us, which is what ideas all thruought "spund science" have..
It is usually always the person who thinks "outside the box" who can break the chains of narrow mindedness in these fields..
Yet I started out just like some hear before I moved on from electrical engineering to recording engineering..

Yeah, shame that the brain is so stupid when it comes to deciphering the signals. It's not strawman when we're asking you to provide evidence: stop abusing that term.
 
Also, you're only half correct: it's always the person who thinks outside the box AND can prove it who is successful. Doing one the former without the latter is pointless.

 

[castleofargh]

The overlooked issue is not only do dacs vary in performance,
but also the analoge outputs, whether single ended or balanced,
Also play a significant role in the overall voicing of the dac.

To me this topic is like a dog chasing its tail.
Alot of spin to overlook the obvious,
that no matter how much a given person is affected by placibo,
long term listening eventually wins out and the person is left with the truth.
No amount placibo in the world is going to block the ear's hearing..

It can look like a girl but if it sounds like a man, your ears will win over any illusion.

good argument, except all the false stuff in it.
time doesn't get you closer to the truth, if anything it reinforces your own convictions. only testing and measuring get you closer to reality.
 
also ears are not the main sense we rely on. it's vision and by a good margin.
 
 
edit: just looked at Joe's post and saw him mentioned you famous signature. now I remember you and how I already wasted too much time trying to talk about rational stuff with you in the past. I'll add you to my special list of friends so I don't forget again.

 

[Sapientiam]

Since when did "description of the qualities of the sound" constitute evidence in any sense of the word, let alone science.

 
Provided its a falsifiable description (i.e. not just an opinion) then since when hasn't it been considered evidence, in science or elsewhere?

 

[arnyk]

Haha you guys funnier than me!

Why is it when I hear "strawman" I get tempted to light a match?
Lol
Time to light a match for you to ponder:


What do you think Recording Engineers do for a living?
DEPEND ON THEIR EARS ONLY..
 

Utterly ignorant false claim. Any modern professional sound engineer worth his salt carries:
 
(1) SPL meter
(2) Measurement microphone
(3) Mic preamp and USB audio interface if needed.
(4) Laptop or tablet computer
(5) Audio analysis software.
 

 

 

 

[DreamKing]

   
Provided its a falsifiable description (i.e. not just an opinion) then since when hasn't it been considered evidence, in science or elsewhere?

 
Except the descriptions you're talking about are nothing but opinions and perceptions, so not falsifiable just like any belief that can't be proven false. And then the burden of proof is on whoever is making these contentious claims, that's the only way it would be considered evidence. Anecdotal evidence has never been conclusive in science because it's susceptible to biases.

 

[arnyk]

   
To me this says you're claiming all the listening reports of differences are the result of placebo. That claim itself, if its to be within science needs to be falsifiable. How are you going to test the claim?

 
 
The facts of the matter is that placebo effects are only about 20% of the problem.
 
The remaining problems are:
 
(1) Inadequate level matching
 
(2) Inadequate time synching
 
(3) Inadequate switching
 
(4) Lack of a reliable reference
 
I love it when people say: "But I did a blind test". Blindness addresses only 20% of the serious problems, and solutions more on the order of 100% are necessary.
 
Furthermore, when people say "Blind test" they usually mean Single Blind Test and the serious flaws in them have been known for 100s of years.
 
So saying "But I did a blind test"  may fool many of the small boys, but none of the men.

 

[Sapientiam]

Ah but I wasn't talking about 'blind tests' I was talking about listening reports. Red herrings galore.

 

[arnyk]

  Ah but I wasn't talking about 'blind tests' I was talking about listening reports. Red herrings galore.

 
That appears to be a deflection, not a serious response.
 
Despite the name-calling,  apparently you can't find a single actual flaw in my 5 points. So you resort to name calling. I get it. I win!
 
The fact of the matter is that placebo effects are only about 20% of the problem.
 
The remaining 80% of the problems are:
 
(1) Inadequate level matching
 
(2) Inadequate time synching
 
(3) Inadequate switching
 
(4) Lack of a reliable reference
 
I'll bet money that only a very tiny fraction of all audiophiles have actually participated in a listening test that addressed all 5 points. Are you one of them?

 

[Sapientiam]

What makes you think I'm an audiophile?

 

[arnyk]

  What makes you think I'm an audiophile?

 
That you interjected yourself into this audiophile conversation.
 
Besides, walks like a duck, talks like a duck...
 
Today's word (like every other day on an audiophile forum) is Denial.