[grndslm]

Hmm.... I wish I could see what I was listening to.

 

[Gurra1980]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsthetiX /img/forum/go_quote.gif umm yah, it's the sine and the kicks... If you filter the kicks in an audio editor the sinewave remains constant. ...heres the verdict VIA spectral analysis.. As you can see here the sine is not effected. from kvr

Ok, so the first pictures you showed was meassurement from the headphones and these are all electronic?

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plywood99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Isn't this just distortion? More noticeable on single drivers, aka headphones, and less noticeable on two-way setups. Three ways should totally nullify the effect, since the crossovers are separating the signal...

Well yeah, I assumed from the start that it was distortion (IMD?). That would also explain why Esthetix hears it on his KVR monitors, since the crossover would pass both signals to the speaker and not the tweeter, and why it doesn't happen on 3-ways (the seperate mids speaker would do the sine wave and the bass speaker would do the kick). But that still doesn't explain what is actually causing the distortion and why some drivers have more of it than others?

 

[plywood99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well yeah, I assumed from the start that it was distortion (IMD?). That would also explain why Esthetix hears it on his KVR monitors, since the crossover would pass both signals to the speaker and not the tweeter, and why it doesn't happen on 3-ways (the seperate mids speaker would do the sine wave and the bass speaker would do the kick). But that still doesn't explain what is actually causing the distortion and why some drivers have more of it than others?

Driver membrane flexion, non linear output of the driver.

AKA, imd...

Ply

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plywood99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Driver membrane flexion, non linear output of the driver. AKA, imd...

Do you have a reference for this? I was hoping we could use some more detailed info to form some kind of test or glean some info about why certain drivers perform the way they do. After seeing how strong the effect is, I don't doubt it has a big impact on instrument seperation and coherence during dynamic passages, among other things.

Can others with keen ears that have multiple pairs of phones compare results between them? So far it looks like:

*Lower to Higher apparent IMD
ER6 (armature driver) ~ Lambda Pro (both seem to have a small but different effect)
MS2i < HD650
K81

 

[Duggeh]

In order of how easily and to what degree the phenomenon is noticed.

Jecklin Float Electrostatic (very noticeable wobbling in the sine tone)

Stax Omega 2 (not as noticable as the Jecklin electrostatic, despite the O2s far greater impact and depth of the bass, still identifiably there)

TakeT H2 (Just as noticable as with the O2, but because the H2 has more bass thump with the same degree of sine modulation, I decided to rate it an inch higher in competancy with regards to the test)

Ergo AMT (Separation very clear, change in sine tone minuscule, so miniscule as to possibly be in my head.) However this could be down to the AMTs unique bass presentation and frequency response that changes over the driver.

 

[TMM]

noticeable, but subtle on my A900 even at high volume.

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif In order of how easily and to what degree the phenomenon is noticed. Jecklin Float Electrostatic (very noticeable wobbling in the sine tone) Stax Omega 2 (not as noticable as the Jecklin electrostatic, despite the O2s far greater impact and depth of the bass, still identifiably there) TakeT H2 (Just as noticable as with the O2, but because the H2 has more bass thump with the same degree of sine modulation, I decided to rate it an inch higher in competancy with regards to the test) Ergo AMT (Separation very clear, change in sine tone minuscule, so miniscule as to possibly be in my head.) However this could be down to the AMTs unique bass presentation and frequency response that changes over the driver.

Thanks very much Duggeh, this is exactly the kind of comparison I was hoping for when I first posted the thread. Do you think it's possible to EQ the Ergo AMT to have the same amount of bass as the H2 and compare them that way? If they really do that well in this test I will seriously consider finding one.

 

[pfloding]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSTpt1022 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm listening to the uncompressed and hard panned with my K701s. I don't believe it is psycho-acoustic. I hear no change in frequency with the hard panned but when listening to the original uncompressed, there is a definite warble in pitch during and after the kick. Oddly, this only seems to begin occurring with the third hit, not the first two. This leads me to conclude it is an artifact of the headphone drivers. I did not detect any muffledness though.

Unless the heaphones are driven into hard limiting, and it's not psycho-acoustic, then it sounds as if it's a problem with the headphone amp. (Also assuming the recording hasn't been frigged up.)

BTW, comparing with speakers is not very meaningful since you have crosstalk with them.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks very much Duggeh, this is exactly the kind of comparison I was hoping for when I first posted the thread. Do you think it's possible to EQ the Ergo AMT to have the same amount of bass as the H2 and compare them that way? If they really do that well in this test I will seriously consider finding one.

Not a chance of that, I've spent many many many hours trying all sorts of EQ techniques with the AMT and every single one takes away more than it gives when compared with how I now run it, which is straight from the back of a power amp without the Precide notch filter box. The AMT is my most frustrating headphone, it constantly teases with potential but despite my best efforts has never truly sung in my rig. Moving from the stock Ergo Amp1 (which was my amp for the review I did) to the power amp I use now was an improvement of orders of magnitude. But they are capable of more. Trouble is that the amp Precide designed specifically for them is about $1700. Despite never truly singing though, it holds its own very well against the O2, H2 and Float, and with some kinds of music, if im in the AMT listening mood, it just destroys all three of them. If I could cure its inconsistencies, I may very well simply pick it over the others. One day.

I will do this test again at the UK meet when I try the AMT from some of the amps that will be there and note my impressions for you if you like.

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will do this test again at the UK meet when I try the AMT from some of the amps that will be there and note my impressions for you if you like.

Much appreciated. And good luck finding the right amp for them.

 

[Catharsis]

Awww...I was going to give this a try and the link is not working

 

[leeperry]

yeah 404

 

[YGingras]

Anyone knows how to regenerate the files? I can host them if bandwidth is a problem.

 

[ivan2]

if anyone can rehost, I would like to test my IEMs too.