[angelom]

Compared to the Bathy's I'd say they sound very similar but they have a smaller soundstage and less bass.

I owning the Bathys for 10 days and from my memory, the ST is have less bass and more small soundstage, yes, but the Bathys have some recessed mids that I can't fixing with the Bathys EQ and this is always little problematic for me personally. The bass I can reducing with the EQ but I can't fixing the dip in the mids.

So the tonality is a little different but not objectively better or worse and you can easily resolve that difference with the Bathy's EQ

Sound preferences are, of course, very personal but if neutrality / flat tuning is important for a person, the ST is "objectively" more correct / better in this aspect. The Bathys have very good sound but is still with more orientation for consumer tuning. The ST is the more transparent, and with less coloration, headphone, but this isn't, of course, everybody's preference.

Soltaire changes its frequency response with ANC on/off, seems to have less bass with ANC off. Bathy's is constant.

The ST have little less bass with ANC on, yes, but isn't a significant difference or isn't significant to the point of sounding really different. Everybody, I think, in this thread, and in all reviews outside head-fi have a consensus that one of the more strong aspects of the ST is precisely the consistency in (the excellent) sound in ALL modes.

Also, the Bathys have ANC on all the time or transparency mode. With the Bathys you can't have pure BT-only mode (where ANC or transparency are completely off). With the ST you have pure BT-only mode, and the even better sounding BT HQ (high quality) mode, apart from, of course, ANC, transparency modes, and truly passive mode (with even a balanced cable) that the Bathys don't having.

The truly passive mode is not only one option in the ST, but is a very important aspect in the development of the ST. The BT HQ mode is, similarly, other very important aspect in the design and development of the ST.

Soltaire has some volume issues and it's just generally harder to drive.

I don't know if the ST you trying have the firmware update where the volume is increasing from the original release. Still, the Bathys is very more loud.

One problem for me, and is a problem that I see several people mentioning in the 2 Bathys threads here in head-fi, is that for people with Apple devices, the volume steps are very drastic, one volume step can sounding very loud or very quiet. This driving me crazy and is one of 3 reasons why I returning the Bathys. The other main problem for me is the discomfort I experiencing with the Bathys.

Soltaire T app is limited, no manual EQ.

Is confirmation by T+A that a custom EQ will becoming available soon in a firmware update. I hope this EQ is better than the Bathys EQ, because the 5 bands EQ of the Bathys isn't sufficiently good in my opinion, specially in the mids.

Soltaire outputs pretty low volume outside of being driven at home via a dac

Like I saying before, the volume is increasing with the firmware update of mid December for BT mode, but still isn't so loud like the Bathys and some people maybe still preferring more volume. But I also explaining that in my personal case I much preferring the volume of the ST than the volume problem I have with the Bathys with Apple devices (iPhone and MacBook Pro).

But I don't need a DAC when using either the 3.5mm cable or the USB-C cable when I connect the ST directly to my MacBook. In this 2 cases the volume is increasing significantly.

The Soltaire has smaller earcups, I find it less comfortable.

This is the other big problem I personally having with the Bathys. Even when the earpads are more big and can covering all ear sizes easily, in my case I always must adjusting the position of the Bathys constantly, and they're never really fully comfortable because I always having this sensation of having something in my head. This becoming more bad after 30-45 minutes for me personally. This isn't a problem for me with the ST. But yes, because the ST earpads are more small than average ANC headphones, is important that, if possible, the person trying before buying the ST.

The Bathy's can engage it's dac via USB C which lets you push fantastic audio to at any stationary setup (e.g. you can use it at work without bringing a dac with you for high quality sound). The Soltaire suffers the same volume issues via USB C, so I think this isn't ideal

Like I explaining above, I getting excellent audio AND very more volume with only the USB-C cable (no DAC necessary) connected to my MacBook Pro.

But if you're looking for a better balance between home and on-the go use, and you're happy to use a USB C connection for at home listening then the Bathy's is probably a better option

For the reasons I giving above, I think this isn't true, at least certainly isn't true for me. In ALL modes the ST is offering, I'm getting excellent sound with the factory tuning (no EQ necessary).

 

[GungJoe]

For the reasons I giving above, I think this isn't true, at least certainly isn't true for me. In ALL modes the ST is offering, I'm getting excellent sound with the factory tuning (no EQ necessary).

Just on this I didn't mean to say that the sound quality is worse on the go. Obviously both of them have worse audio quality on the go because the audio you can push to them is more limited, but what I mean is that Focal are very focused on having the experience remain constant irrespective of what you plug it into. ANC doesn't affect the tonality on the Focal and equally, the Focal offers its full volume range irrespective of the circumstance in which you use it. It's always able to go to ~105-110DB or so whereas it feels that the Soltaire is stuck pushing a 85-90 maximum. The Soltaire is probably loud enough most of the time but there are times where I feel I would often want to bump it up just a bit.

None of that makes it a bad experience but it's just that consistency between the sound at home and on the go on the Focal that I appreciate. I actually don't often even bother to plug the Focal in when I'm at home, but with the Soltaire I would always feel the urge to because I know the experience is quite a bit better that way.

Also as for the idea that the Bathy's have a consumer or v shaped tuning, I think that's only partially true. They have a warmer tuning than something that's completely flat but not a warm tuning in the same sense that the Momentum 4, or XM5 has. It's a neutral leaning towards warm, and I think because it's not too inclined to any one direction it's very easy to EQ to taste personally. I think that by default it follows the harman curve very closely and I think that's likely to be appreciable by a majority of listeners. However, if you want the bass pulled down a little bit then the EQ allows you to do that. As for the recessed mids, I would actually describe the Focal as having more neutral mids whereas many headphones of this type (like the px8) are more mid forward which is nice for some more vocal orientated music but not as good for others.

You're right that t+a have an EQ app coming, but I'm not of the mind to pass any judgement on anything but what is present in the moment. The EQ might even end up being a 2 band EQ in the vein of the PX8, or perhaps it will be the 10+ band EQ that you envision, these are just hypotheticals until they deliver it.

In any case, not worth the price for me but it might be for others. I wouldn't go in looking for an objective sound upgrade when compared to the Bathys or ML5090, but the Soltaire might suit someones preferences better in certain areas.

 

[ddlo]

Just on this I didn't mean to say that the sound quality is worse on the go. Obviously both of them have worse audio quality on the go because the audio you can push to them is more limited, but what I mean is that Focal are very focused on having the experience remain constant irrespective of what you plug it into. ANC doesn't affect the tonality on the Focal and equally, the Focal offers its full volume range irrespective of the circumstance in which you use it. It's always able to go to ~105-110DB or so whereas it feels that the Soltaire is stuck pushing a 85-90 maximum. The Soltaire is probably loud enough most of the time but there are times where I feel I would often want to bump it up just a bit.

None of that makes it a bad experience but it's just that consistency between the sound at home and on the go on the Focal that I appreciate. I actually don't often even bother to plug the Focal in when I'm at home, but with the Soltaire I would always feel the urge to because I know the experience is quite a bit better that way.

Also as for the idea that the Bathy's have a consumer or v shaped tuning, I think that's only partially true. They have a warmer tuning than something that's completely flat but not a warm tuning in the same sense that the Momentum 4, or XM5 has. It's a neutral leaning towards warm, and I think because it's not too inclined to any one direction it's very easy to EQ to taste personally. I think that by default it follows the harman curve very closely and I think that's likely to be appreciable by a majority of listeners. However, if you want the bass pulled down a little bit then the EQ allows you to do that. As for the recessed mids, I would actually describe the Focal as having more neutral mids whereas many headphones of this type (like the px8) are more mid forward which is nice for some more vocal orientated music but not as good for others.

You're right that t+a have an EQ app coming, but I'm not of the mind to pass any judgement on anything but what is present in the moment. The EQ might even end up being a 2 band EQ in the vein of the PX8, or perhaps it will be the 10+ band EQ that you envision, these are just hypotheticals until they deliver it.

In any case, not worth the price for me but it might be for others. I wouldn't go in looking for an objective sound upgrade when compared to the Bathys or ML5090, but the Soltaire might suit someones preferences better in certain areas.

thank you for listing out (even some maybe subjective such as the vol level) the pros and cons so others looking for a high end could have some thing to make reference to when considering their next purchase. I shared with most of your bullet points listing the pros and cons of ST. my personal favorite wireless headphone so far is 5909 regardless of price. but it's not hard to see why so many here love ST (just the 70hrs battery life is insane!). i won't have any dissatisfaction if i used ST for music enjoyment in almost all circumstances.

it's quite obvious people have different preferences on sound signature (and likely the same person have different preferences in different situations too). There just won't be a perfect set of headphones that fits all. It's also quite hard to justify $1600 for a set of wireless headphone (or wired headphones) for most people anyway. For those looking to spend this amount of money, likely there're quite specific qualities they're looking for and they're willing to pay disproportionate price for such pursue. I believe most will agree ST or any headphones could no way be 7 times better than a mainstream model such as xm5 or mw4 the price disparity suggests. i myself don't find my 1266TC or SUS 100% better than ST or even xm5/mw4 (if sound quality could be quantifed) and there're certainly moments I'll reach out to ST rather than my more expensive and supposedly better wired headphones. it's hard to get away the fact that high end audio gear (maybe same applies to most things) has deteriorating price-performance ratio as price moving up. even it's still not a perfect way to make purchase decision, demo the headphones before buying if possible is usually a very sound advice. there's just no one else other than you that are going to enjoy music with that headphone!

 

[GungJoe]

thank you for listing out (even some maybe subjective such as the vol level) the pros and cons so others looking for a high end could have some thing to make reference to when considering their next purchase. I shared with most of your bullet points listing the pros and cons of ST. my personal favorite wireless headphone so far is 5909 regardless of price. but it's not hard to see why so many here love ST (just the 70hrs battery life is insane!). i won't have any dissatisfaction if i used ST for music enjoyment in almost all circumstances.

it's quite obvious people have different preferences on sound signature (and likely the same person have different preferences in different situations too). There just won't be a perfect set of headphones that fits all. It's also quite hard to justify $1600 for a set of wireless headphone (or wired headphones) for most people anyway. For those looking to spend this amount of money, likely there're quite specific qualities they're looking for and they're willing to pay disproportionate price for such pursue. I believe most will agree ST or any headphones could no way be 7 times better than a mainstream model such as xm5 or mw4 the price disparity suggests. i myself don't find my 1266TC or SUS 100% better than ST or even xm5/mw4 (if sound quality could be quantifed) and there're certainly moments I'll reach out to ST rather than my more expensive and supposedly better wired headphones. it's hard to get away the fact that high end audio gear (maybe same applies to most things) has deteriorating price-performance ratio as price moving up. even it's still not a perfect way to make purchase decision, demo the headphones before buying if possible is usually a very sound advice. there's just no one else other than you that are going to enjoy music with that headphone!

I agree with what you're saying. Honestly I think for me personally it would take something really special and sustainable in this space for me to want to spend £1200 anyway. The fixed batteries in these headphones at that price are inappropriate.

As well as being into higher end audio I also play games and I keep up with a lot of what's going on in the cheaper headphone tech space. I bought my partner a headset called the Arctis Nova Pro, and while the sound quality isn't good the software and general ergonomics exceed the PX8, ML509, Bathy's, or Solitaire T.

I'm not saying we should all be going out and buying £300 gaming headsets instead, because honestly the audio quality is just extremely 'okay', from these, but I think they've solved a lot of design challenges that much more high end manufacturers appear to struggle with.

For instance, the battery sits under the earcup and is replacable. They come with two batteries (40 hours each) and a portable charging system so that you can rotate these out whenever they run low. You never need to stop and charge these.

They transmit audio via a wireless frequency and offer compatibility with a wireless dac, or bluetooth, and offer connectivity for both at the same time. The wireless dac means that you don't have to worry about bluetooth formats and whatnot, you can get lossless and latency free audio from them. Perfect for at home or office listening where you are in a building but would still like the flexibility of wireless audio.

They also offer software that is far beyond anything offered by Focal, B&O, T+A or Mark Levinson, allowing you to do everything you'd want to, a 10 band EQ, options to adjust the sidetone, microphone volume and so forth. When connected to PC they offer a graphic EQ and AI based noise cancelling applied to the microphone input.

I want this attention to detail in a £1000+ audiophile product that feels like it's made to last. To me an emphasis on audio quality absolutely needs to be paired with flexibility of the system software and a focus on long-term sustainability with options for completely lossless wireless audio and replaceable batteries. This is just a general state of the market rant though, not particularly directed at T+A as Focal have the same problems but it's just that I feel there's more acknowledgement from the cheaper brands that this is an evolving tech space, Sony expect and want you to buy new headphones every couple of years and given their price maybe that's okay, but at £1200 for solitaire t, I would expect more forward thinking designs and protection from technological redundancy.

 

[ddlo]

I agree with what you're saying. Honestly I think for me personally it would take something really special and sustainable in this space for me to want to spend £1200 anyway. The fixed batteries in these headphones at that price are inappropriate.

As well as being into higher end audio I also play games and I keep up with a lot of what's going on in the cheaper headphone tech space. I bought my partner a headset called the Arctis Nova Pro, and while the sound quality isn't good the software and general ergonomics exceed the PX8, ML509, Bathy's, or Solitaire T.

I'm not saying we should all be going out and buying £300 gaming headsets instead, because honestly the audio quality is just extremely 'okay', from these, but I think they've solved a lot of design challenges that much more high end manufacturers appear to struggle with.

For instance, the battery sits under the earcup and is replacable. They come with two batteries (40 hours each) and a portable charging system so that you can rotate these out whenever they run low. You never need to stop and charge these.

They transmit audio via a wireless frequency and offer compatibility with a wireless dac, or bluetooth, and offer connectivity for both at the same time. The wireless dac means that you don't have to worry about bluetooth formats and whatnot, you can get lossless and latency free audio from them. Perfect for at home or office listening where you are in a building but would still like the flexibility of wireless audio.

They also offer software that is far beyond anything offered by Focal, B&O, T+A or Mark Levinson, allowing you to do everything you'd want to, a 10 band EQ, options to adjust the sidetone, microphone volume and so forth. When connected to PC they offer a graphic EQ and AI based noise cancelling applied to the microphone input.

I want this attention to detail in a £1000+ audiophile product that feels like it's made to last. To me an emphasis on audio quality absolutely needs to be paired with flexibility of the system software and a focus on long-term sustainability with options for completely lossless wireless audio and replaceable batteries. This is just a general state of the market rant though, not particularly directed at T+A as Focal have the same problems but it's just that I feel there's more acknowledgement from the cheaper brands that this is an evolving tech space, Sony expect and want you to buy new headphones every couple of years and given their price maybe that's okay, but at £1200 for solitaire t, I would expect more forward thinking designs and protection from technological redundancy.

Very true! I always feel the same when using mainstream tws. They're often simply much better design in many areas such as software, user friendliness, etc.

I think one of the reason is the development, certification and tooling cost for production are very high nowadays for electronic. I believe high end wireless headphones may have only a few thousands or less sales volume (the only headphone i got having a s/n over 10000 is hd800s, which is in production for a very long time that's impossible for electronic) while the mainstream models likely selling hundreds of thousands. So it's just economically infeasible to have as much design effort/economies of scale in high end headphones. It's just hard for niche market products to be better all round. People often cite the (maybe irrational too) example that no one buy Ferrari for cargo carrying capacity or ride comfort.

 

[GungJoe]

Very true! I always feel the same when using mainstream tws. They're often simply much better design in many areas such as software, user friendliness, etc.

I think one of the reason is the development, certification and tooling cost for production are very high nowadays for electronic. I believe high end wireless headphones may have only a few thousands or less sales volume (the only headphone i got having a s/n over 10000 is hd800s, which is in production for a very long time that's impossible for electronic) while the mainstream models likely selling hundreds of thousands. So it's just economically infeasible to have as much design effort/economies of scale in high end headphones. It's just hard for niche market products to be better all round. People often cite the (maybe irrational too) example that no one buy Ferrari for cargo carrying capacity or ride comfort.

I actually thought that too when looking at Sony's headphones and things like that, but Steelseries is owned by GN Store Nord which is really not a huge company like Sony. Steelseries itself has 370 employees compared to Focals 220. How did they figure all of that out for their gaming headphones? They even report less operating revenue than Focal.

Maybe it would be more optimistic though, to approach this the other way around. If Focal, T+A and so on do establish that this high end bluetooth market exists for audio, I'm sure that Sony will be right behind them with thousand dollar bluetooth headphones too, and maybe they'll work a lot better too.

 

[smuh]

Just a quick update: I will definitely keep the ST's. They sound great, they are comfortable, the ANC and passive isolation is great... Just to call out a few of the items I enjoy.

I am not sure if if I would agree with the statement that they are hard to drive. The DCAs Aeon Noires and Fostex RPs are harder to drive and I have had a couple of dynamics that were probably on the same level.

Over Bluetooth they are more than loud enough at about 75%

 

[angelom]

I am not sure if if I would agree with the statement that they are hard to drive. The DCAs Aeon Noires and Fostex RPs are harder to drive and I have had a couple of dynamics that were probably on the same level.

Over Bluetooth they are more than loud enough at about 75%

You are correct, the ST is NOT hard to drive. Is a very different thing having a headphone hard to drive and a headphone that isn’t have maximum loud volume like others headphones. And when we’re speaking of BT/ANC headphones, in particular, by the nature of this use they must being easy to drive.

The ST is have a similar maximum volume, after the firmware update, like the B&O H95, H9 or ML 5909. Other headphones have more BT max loud volume, like Bathys, Px8 or P7 Wireless, and others.

With the majority of albums the ST is very sufficiently loud (sometimes too loud even specially with many modern masters!), and using the ST at 100% volume, with 95% - 98% of albums of many genres and ages in my collection, is a very good recipe for eventual hearing damage.

 

[F208Frank]

One thing I really noticed was that after owning these, it is very rare for me to use my wired IEMS, just saying.

 

[smuh]

One thing I really noticed was that after owning these, it is very rare for me to use my wired IEMS, just saying.

I just got the ST's a couple of days and while I have a collection of IEMs that I really enjoy listening to, there is always some sort of noise coming from the cable, unplugging IEMs because my wife is yelling at me and while both of these things are not a big deal (don't tell my wife) they seem to bother me enough to sometimes just go for some But headphones. And not to mention, sometimes I just don't adjust to the tips in my ears... But that's just a mood thing I guess. I may change my preference in summer...

 

[Benesyed]

yeah iem vs headphones comes down to the temperature and my ears

 

[ddlo]

I just got the ST's a couple of days and while I have a collection of IEMs that I really enjoy listening to, there is always some sort of noise coming from the cable, unplugging IEMs because my wife is yelling at me and while both of these things are not a big deal (don't tell my wife) they seem to bother me enough to sometimes just go for some But headphones. And not to mention, sometimes I just don't adjust to the tips in my ears... But that's just a mood thing I guess. I may change my preference in summer...

i've same feeling. But last weekend, i wore my ST walking in the city. The weather is getting warmer like 20+ and my ears already sweating after 1-2 hours. Then i thought iems might fare better in summer time outdoor.

But today when i wore my fitear est ti with the very thick creator cable when i going out, i found the stethoscope effect quite obvious and the rigid cable also kept pulling the iems and lost the seal. Nothing's perfect i guess.

 

[angelom]

In my life Valentine's day is never important and, I will admitting that, some girls and women are not happy about this, specially in my more young years... But today, after 3 months with the ST, my love for this 'imperfect' child is more strong than my love for any of the many headphones or earphones that I owning in the past. So, this comment in public is my Valentine's day gift for the ST.

 

[F208Frank]

In my life Valentine's day is never important and, I will admitting that, some girls and women are not happy about this, specially in my more young years... But today, after 3 months with the ST, my love for this 'imperfect' child is more strong than my love for any of the many headphones or earphones that I owning in the past. So, this comment in public is my Valentine's day gift for the ST.

Hahahahhaha

 

[WDitters]

Interesting find .... Just spent a free hour in between meetings listening to Kendrick Lamar's new album "Mr. Morale & the Big Steppers". And I found that even if the technical rendering of the bass by the Elite is way better, the T+A Solitaire T nonetheless sweep the floor with the €4000 Meze Elite when it comes to pure impact and slam ... They convey Kendrick's power in this album soooo much better & harder ... And then to think that Manny Marroquin mixed these tracks on his (namebearing) Audeze MM-500 ... Makes me really curious about the MM-500 also ...