T+A HiFi - DAC 200 - Official Discussion Thread
Nov 23, 2023 at 12:01 PM Post #286 of 479
Would a device like the 7055-C end up with similar results to a DDC? Been looking at the Matrix x-spdif 3 as I run USB from a gaming PC straight to my DAC right now.
USB stuff and DDC can't be directly compared because they work in different ways.

With USB, your DAC is completely in charge of timing. There is no clock signal for audio on USB, and in fact it's a two way communication, the DAC itself asks the computer/source for more data when it needs it, and converts according to the timing dictated by its internal clock.
For this reason, with USB the only thing you need to worry about is noise, which an Intona completely addresses in that it both blocks all noise from the source, AND is incredibly low noise in and of itself.
USB 'reclockers' simply cannot provide any improvement in jitter/timing, it does not work that way and no one has ever demonstrated an improvement in jitter via the use of a USB reclocker.

DDCs that output I2S/AES/SPDIF are different because whilst they also seek to provide a very low noise source, they DO provide a clock signal to the DAC. This clock signal is what the DAC uses to determine when to convert samples and so the timing accuracy of the clock signal provided by the DDC measurably affects the performance of the DAC even though the data itself has not changed.

As to whether a DDC or using USB is better, it depends. A few years ago I would have said definitely a DDC, as many DACs simply didn't have very good USB implementations/internal clocking and so there were quite significant improvements to be had by using a high performance I2S DDC instead.

Nowadays though, many DACs even at lower pricepoints have exceptional jitter performance and it's a lot rarer that a DDC will actually improve things. In fact in many cases they may make it slightly worse. Though most good DDCs do also provide galvanic isolation so again blocking noise from the source is a benefit.

My default recommendation nowadays would be to get an intona, they make a cheaper USB 2.0 only variant as well, though the 7055-C is the lowest noise one if you want the best performance (also looks the best IMO).
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 12:05 PM Post #287 of 479
and where it's at with the 200, right?


got a DI20HE which should be enough

But since my audio set up is far away from the PC desk I'd need something that can be placed on the rack too...
Don't people use laptops with mentioned specs/sufficient computing power instead of PCs as well?

funny but I spent way more money on the Melco than a "high end laptop becoming an audio pc" would cost.

Which really could be attributed me being influenced by "audio streamer mafias" programming...
DI20HE is an excellent DDC. I have measurements of it here: https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/audio-gd-di20he-measurements/

As mentioned in my above post whether a DDC or clean USB source is the better option is DAC dependent. Older DACs you'll usually find that a good I2S/SPDIF/AES source will provide better results, nowadays though most DACs actually perform better via USB so long as you're not pumping noise from a beefy gaming PC through as well.

As for the laptop yep that will work. For PCM only, you can honestly use something reasonably basic, a compact laptop or mini PC will work fine.
If you want to do high performance DSD modulators then you probably want something beefier, be it a rack mounted PC or gaming laptop or something
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 12:23 PM Post #288 of 479
USB stuff and DDC can't be directly compared because they work in different ways.

With USB, your DAC is completely in charge of timing. There is no clock signal for audio on USB, and in fact it's a two way communication, the DAC itself asks the computer/source for more data when it needs it, and converts according to the timing dictated by its internal clock.
For this reason, with USB the only thing you need to worry about is noise, which an Intona completely addresses in that it both blocks all noise from the source, AND is incredibly low noise in and of itself.
USB 'reclockers' simply cannot provide any improvement in jitter/timing, it does not work that way and no one has ever demonstrated an improvement in jitter via the use of a USB reclocker.

DDCs that output I2S/AES/SPDIF are different because whilst they also seek to provide a very low noise source, they DO provide a clock signal to the DAC. This clock signal is what the DAC uses to determine when to convert samples and so the timing accuracy of the clock signal provided by the DDC measurably affects the performance of the DAC even though the data itself has not changed.

As to whether a DDC or using USB is better, it depends. A few years ago I would have said definitely a DDC, as many DACs simply didn't have very good USB implementations/internal clocking and so there were quite significant improvements to be had by using a high performance I2S DDC instead.

Nowadays though, many DACs even at lower pricepoints have exceptional jitter performance and it's a lot rarer that a DDC will actually improve things. In fact in many cases they may make it slightly worse. Though most good DDCs do also provide galvanic isolation so again blocking noise from the source is a benefit.

My default recommendation nowadays would be to get an intona, they make a cheaper USB 2.0 only variant as well, though the 7055-C is the lowest noise one if you want the best performance (also looks the best IMO).
Substantially more in-depth response than I anticipated - thanks very much!
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 1:44 PM Post #289 of 479
If anyone was curious about measurements I've posted some here: https://goldensound.audio/2023/11/22/ta-dac200-measurements/

The PCM section is 'fine', but the DSD section measures significantly better, and sounds SIGNIFICANTLY better than the PCM section IMO.
If you own this DAC and not using it with HQPlayer DSD you're doing yourself a disservice :p
The PCM section with bez2 filter also sounds extremely good. Haven't experimented much with the other pcm options. Just using PCM from dac200 makes the audio quality in a different league than the schiit yggdrasil og a2 I upgraded from. To say the DSD is better than the PCM means a lot because we're talking about a world class sound ready.
 
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Nov 23, 2023 at 1:56 PM Post #290 of 479
Actually I am looking into buying a DAC 200, but since I only stream Qobuz via USB Audio Player Pro, I will never use the dac's DSD capabilities. So is this dac then really a good choice for someone like me, who is strictly streaming music?
Would a Dac like the Swiss Merason not be be a better choice for me? It cannot do DSD, it strictly is a 24/192-DAC
THD+N: < 0.006 %. SNR: > 120 dB. DAC: 2mal BurrBrown 1794A, diskrete I/V.
Are there any other DACs up to USD 5000, since the Merason is Eur 7900, which is a bit steep for me.
 
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Nov 23, 2023 at 3:04 PM Post #291 of 479
Actually I am looking into buying a DAC 200, but since I only stream Qobuz via USB Audio Player Pro, I will never use the dac's DSD capabilities. So is this dac then really a good choice for someone like me, who is strictly streaming music?
Would a Dac like the Swiss Merason not be be a better choice for me? It cannot do DSD, it strictly is a 24/192-DAC
THD+N: < 0.006 %. SNR: > 120 dB. DAC: 2mal BurrBrown 1794A, diskrete I/V.
Are there any other DACs up to USD 5000, since the Merason is Eur 7900, which is a bit steep for me.
The DAC200 is also great for PCM.
There are of course other good DACs in the 5k range like Rockna Wavelight, Holo May, Denafrips Terminator etc.

Ultimately it comes down to taste.
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 3:10 PM Post #292 of 479
The DAC200 is also great for PCM.
There are of course other good DACs in the 5k range like Rockna Wavelight, Holo May, Denafrips Terminator etc.

Ultimately it comes down to taste.
I compared a dac200 on different kinds of music (classic, jazz, rock) with a holo may on pcm and dsd. I preferred the dac200. YMMV
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 4:32 PM Post #293 of 479
Dac200 DSD out is 4.4v and may is 2.9v so that should be taken into consideration when comparing dsd. Pcm may is 5.8v and dac200 is 5v. Considering hqplayer needs you to set - 3dbfs the 2.9v can be quite limiting if you have very hard to drive headphones or a weak amp for some songs.
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 5:52 PM Post #294 of 479
Simply because if looking for the absolute best possible sound quality you can get, putting a limit on the effectiveness of your modulator is not something you want to do.

You want to have either the absolute best possible PCM reconstruction and then find an excellent native PCM converter like a Holo May.
Or have the best possible PCM Reconstruction and then PCM to DSD modulator you can get, and find an excellent 1-bit converter like the one in the DAC200 to use it with.

There are DACs with quite a lot of compute power which is then put toward either PCM reconstruction and/or modulation, Chord DAVE, Playback MPD-8 etc. Though it's not possible to get the same level of compute power that would be required to run something as performant as the HQP ASDM7ECv3 modulator within a DAC. That simply has to be done on a modern full fat processor, and a high end one at that.

Many people prefer plug and play and are happy to sacrifice SQ for the convenience. That's fine too.


I could live with it sure, I wouldn't pay $7000 for it. I have a full video coming but basically the PCM section is 'fine' but would happily take a Wandla over it for instance. With HQP and the 1-bit section the performance is drastically better
Thanks, I watched your video on the Wandla, I also watched your video where you said speakers/headphones are most important, a ridiculous view held by many. GIGO
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 5:58 PM Post #295 of 479
Thanks, I watched your video on the Wandla, I also watched your video where you said speakers/headphones are most important, a ridiculous view held by many. GIGO
Why would that be a ridiculous view?
 
Nov 23, 2023 at 9:54 PM Post #297 of 479
Nov 23, 2023 at 10:20 PM Post #298 of 479
The DAC200 is also great for PCM.
There are of course other good DACs in the 5k range like Rockna Wavelight, Holo May, Denafrips Terminator etc.

Ultimately it comes down to taste.
I think dac200 is more on the level of tambaqui/bartok.
Ten days or so into listening with the Dac200, I am very pleased with the performance of this very well put together converter. Fit and finish is exceptional at this price, layout is way nicer to interact with than my previous Dave dac and the remote control is a joy to use after the cheap plastic trashie supplied with the Chord product.

It took a few days to get the sound reproduction to really shine - Raspberry Pi as transport was OK but only that. Moving to a more fully developed pc set up with dedicated and separately powered USB card, good USB cable and so on improved the depth of sound field very well. Moving from redbook files to HQplayer @16fs pcm and 512 or 1024DSD really allowed the qaulity of the german dac to sing out. Finally upping the source files to PGGB256 pcm files with the NOS2 setting allowed me to assess the dac against the Dave I had in system for two years (with and without an Mscaler - which I sold when I moved to PGGB offline upsampling).

I do not regret selling the Dave - the T+A dac has, to me, a more engaging, tonally varied and dynamic sound which draws me into the music, allows me to listen deep into the soundstage and follow the work of individual musicians even if their contribution is buried in the mix. Dave offered many of these attributes, but it always sounded like a Dave, as thought there was a specific tonal sheen over the sound, which I do not hear with the Dac200 - it sounds more varied, more fluid. Detail retrieval via Raal SR1a or Abyss 1266 TC is everything I could wish for.

So far I have listened to albums across a nice spread of musical styles - improvisation, classical quartets, electronica, jazz groups, piano solo jazz, - Bartok, Ornette Coleman, Crow Trio, Derek Bailey (solo guitar), Kronos Quartet, Bill Evans Trio, Matthew Bourne/Nightports, Squarepusher, plenty of variety. Music I am very familiar with, all of it sounding fresh and inviting.

I will say, I started out with using the inbuilt upsampling filters and the Bezier2 option is very good - so you don't need to go to the lengths of externally crunching the numbers with HQPlayer or whatever. Just feeding from a streaming service or a cd transport will get you a fantastic sound - and then you can bypass the usb interface and feed AES into the dac and be happy.

Superb dac, big shout out to Jack@Audiobarn in the UK for shipping his demo unit to me to enjoy until my order arrives.
Bez2 filter really is incredible. I'll be comparing dsd next.
 
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Nov 23, 2023 at 10:31 PM Post #299 of 479
Dac200 is a huge upgrade over yggy og a2. The sound is much higher resolution without sounding sterile. The dac is extremely natural sounding. Music flows out with incredible timbre. It was the missing link for the susvara to really make the music sound real. The sound is actually quite shocking. This dac is the real deal and it is truly something special.
 
Nov 24, 2023 at 2:33 AM Post #300 of 479
What would you rather listen to:
Laptop with your Meze headphones or T+A DAC/Amp with ear buds?
Since you didn’t specify the earbuds I'd most likely prefer the Meze headphone from a Laptop over a random earbud from the T+A DAC/Amp
 

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