T+A HiFi - DAC 200 - Official Discussion Thread

[manishex]

Dac200 is a huge upgrade over yggy og a2. The sound is much higher resolution without sounding sterile. The dac is extremely natural sounding. Music flows out with incredible timbre. It was the missing link for the susvara to really make the music sound real. The sound is actually quite shocking. This dac is the real deal and it is truly something special.

It paira with susvara amazingly well. It's not a bright dac but very revealing at the top, I just add 3-4 db in the bass and it fill out the sus.

 

[Tekunda]

Maybe I sound naive, but I thought that DSD is used for SACD playback only?
So I assumed that using the DAC 200 with HQplayer via a computer cannot be used for streaming Qobuz like I do, via a tablet into the USB input of the DAC?
I thought that works only with PCM.
Or is it possible to convert the PCM stream into DSD in order to benefit from the DAC 200's DSD capabilities?

 

[manishex]

Maybe I sound naive, but I thought that DSD is used for SACD playback only?
So I assumed that using the DAC 200 with HQplayer via a computer cannot be used for streaming Qobuz like I do, via a tablet into the USB input of the DAC?
I thought that works only with PCM.
Or is it possible to convert the PCM stream into DSD in order to benefit from the DAC 200's DSD capabilities?

I think most of us are converting pcm to dsd via hqplayer (eg 48khz 16 bit to 49mhz 1 bit). Hqplayer can stream
qobuz directly or used as a roon backend which can stream qobuz.

 

[ThanatosVI]

Maybe I sound naive, but I thought that DSD is used for SACD playback only?
So I assumed that using the DAC 200 with HQplayer via a computer cannot be used for streaming Qobuz like I do, via a tablet into the USB input of the DAC?
I thought that works only with PCM.
Or is it possible to convert the PCM stream into DSD in order to benefit from the DAC 200's DSD capabilities?

SACDs use DSD, that is correct.
However they aren't the only Sources of DSD.
You can buy high Res files directly in DSD (files that have been mastered like that)
Or you can convert PCM Streams to DSD, in that case your PC/Server does the conversion.

Very famous for this is the Software HQ Player, but also Roon is capable of doing that.

On top there are very rare Devices like the Rockna Wavelight Server, which is able to do that via FPGA instead of CPU. (Currently limited to i2S tho, other outputs to come in the future, excl. USB)

 

[Tekunda]

Thanks guys for explaining the DSD/PCM thing in detail.
So the question for me is, if the sound quality of the PCM to DSD conversion raises the soundquality compared to streaming PCM via USB Audio Player Pro? Or are these more or less mere technicalities?
Has anybody been able to compare the two methods of streaming music from Qobuz or Tidal etc.?

 

[manishex]

Thanks guys for explaining the DSD/PCM thing in detail.
So the question for me is, if the sound quality of the PCM to DSD conversion raises the soundquality compared to streaming PCM via USB Audio Player Pro? Or are these more or less mere technicalities?
Has anybody been able to compare the two methods of streaming music from Qobuz or Tidal etc.?

Depends on what dac you have as some dacs have poor dsd implementation. I think the best results come from discrete dsd dacs that can do DSD512+ and also what modulator/filters you're using on hqplayer. The best ones need very powerful pc's.

I eq more than 10 band so use hqplayer's internal matrix engine, UAPP peq is limited so I haven't used it in years unfortunately.

 

[lator]

So the question for me is, if the sound quality of the PCM to DSD conversion raises the soundquality compared to streaming PCM via USB Audio Player Pro? Or are these more or less mere technicalities?

I prefer PCM over DSD. PCM has cleaner leading edges and more lively sound in my opinion. DSD sounds a bit blunted/damped to me. Also most albums are mastered in PCM not DSD.

 

[Soundguy123]

I prefer PCM over DSD. PCM has cleaner leading edges and more lively sound in my opinion. DSD sounds a bit blunted/damped to me. Also most albums are mastered in PCM not DSD.

But chip based SDM DACs like the one in T+A DAC 8 must convert to DSD before the analog stage so either way you are hearing DSD. I believe that rougher/harsher leading edge is caused by pre-echo From the DSD chip modulator.

 

[Davidv100]

But chip based SDM DACs like the one in T+A DAC 8 must convert to DSD before the analog stage so either way you are hearing DSD. I believe that rougher/harsher leading edge is caused by pre-echo From the DSD chip modulator.

I am not sure this is exactly true, since it is said 4 Chips are for PCM, and 4 for DSD inside DAC200.
@GoldenOne also said : “there are actually 2 DACs inside”.

So, it doesn’t seem like an architecture where everything goes through the same “DSD chips”, with PCM being converted upfront inside DAC200.

 

[Davidv100]

(void)

 

[Davidv100]

I prefer PCM over DSD. PCM has cleaner leading edges and more lively sound in my opinion. DSD sounds a bit blunted/damped to me. Also most albums are mastered in PCM not DSD.

This is still compatible with everything @GoldenOne said indeed. Measurements and personal audio preferences may not always align, as we know.

 

[Soundguy123]

I am not sure this is exactly true, since it is said 4 Chips are for PCM, and 4 for DSD inside DAC200.
@GoldenOne also said : “there are actually 2 DACs inside”.

So, it doesn’t seem like an architecture where everything goes through the same “DSD chips”, with PCM being converted upfront inside DAC200.

My statement is entirely accurate if you examine my statement carefully. I did not say the PCM signal input has the exact same path as DSD signal input, as PCM goes through the Burr Brown SDM DAC (SDM chips that convert to DSD prior to the analog stage). The DSD signal is not converted or upsampled and simply goes straight to the separate discrete built in DSD DAC.

 

[Davidv100]

My statement is entirely accurate if you examine my statement carefully. I did not say the PCM signal input has the exact same path as DSD signal input, as PCM goes through the Burr Brown SDM DAC (SDM chips that convert to DSD prior to the analog stage). The DSD signal is not converted or upsampled and simply goes straight to the separate discrete built in DSD DAC.

I am still not sure I am understanding the actual signal path correctly. But I totally agree you seem to be right and I must be wrong. I am no specialist.

So, let’s just take one single canal, say “Right”, do you mean :
- PCM will go thru a “PCM to DSD” converting chip, then thru the “DSD to analog” 1-bit chip,
Whereas
- DSD will skip to first part and go directly to the “DSD to analog” 1-bit chip.

Is this what you mean ?

 

[Soundguy123]

I am still not sure I am understanding the actual signal path correctly. But I totally agree you seem to be right and I must be wrong. I am no specialist.

Hey - it’s a discussion - we are all learning here and my statement obviously wasn’t clear enough and what you inferred was probably what others did too - so your clarifications help me and everyone improve! You weren’t wrong - you just inferred something which my statement implied to you and likely others - so my statement wasn’t well crafted for which your comment was fair and appropriate and appreciated!

 

[Davidv100]

I am still not sure I am understanding the actual signal path correctly. But I totally agree you seem to be right and I must be wrong. I am no specialist.

Hey - it’s a discussion - we are all learning here and my statement obviously wasn’t clear enough and what you inferred was probably what others did too - so your clarifications help me and everyone improve! You weren’t wrong - you just inferred something which my statement implied to you and likely others!

Yes yes Soundguy, no worries at all.
I am cool. And I wasn’t challenging at all. I am learning too.

Still, at the end, I am not sure I understand the correct signal path.