Summit-Fi Random Thoughts

[572217]

"why are we so willing to pay for such heavy diminishing returns?"

Logically it makes no sense, that last 5 to 10 percent, why lose an arm and leg over it?

At least I myself love to tinker. Upgrading is fun as long as I get to a state I'm truly happy with, forget the gear and enjoy the music. Side-grades are not good and a system always in flux doesn't fit my bill either. My mobile rig is there, my uber rig probably by the end of the year and the one in the middle is taking shape too.

Aside from collecting books it's my only hobby. And The budget needs to comfortably fit. Budget trumps desire.

Hifi is also my longest running hobby at 30+ years and I would not necessarily subscribe to the ”last 10%“ view. In my experience, a ’0-100‘-yardstick to measure against does not exist.

System price ranges and what we value in music reproduction matter. Technology moves too over the years.

I value emotions, insight into the music, being happy while listening, feeling good or miserable depending on the message of the record, being transported away and just being with this marvelous human creation – music.

I come from the 2-channel world and had an uber setup there, which grew over 20 years. And I had the pleasure to hear some amazing systems in other homes.

What to judge by?

Enjoying the music? Feeling satisfied? That's possible with a well put together hi-fi system in almost any price range. It's a question of mindset. I love the moments with my mobile rig as much as the moments with the stationary setups.

Audiophile criteria? Which ones? Then system price ranges do matter. And in the 2-channel world the jumps in quality of reproduction between price ranges is astounding. I know from in depth personal experience up to setups well in the six figures. The higher the price tag the more it matters what one optimizes for and how harmoniously the components are put together. An uber system can suck, it can be so-so and it can induce pure bliss.

The differences might not be as pronounced with head-fi. I do know however after seriously upgrading from a dCS Bartók the improvements in my book were more than worth it and positively material. Investment went up a ton. But then, if wallet allows no harm done. Except for potentially becoming a target of envy.

How do I value the ability to comprehend the inexpressible in the music? Musicians can, but I'm not one of them and it is wonderful to explore the inexpressible in so many works. How valuable is it to really approach analog playback and not yearn for a record player anymore? I owned and loved a rare player right up my ally for some years. What's the value of being easily taken away into music after a long day with a sober mind? How to value being so enveloped in music that the mind quiets down and wanders less and less from music? All these qualities are hard to put on a scale and some click in only in a step-change.

You pose a question which is complex to answer.

 

[F208Frank]

At least I myself love to tinker. Upgrading is fun as long as I get to a state I'm truly happy with, forget the gear and enjoy the music. Side-grades are not good and a system always in flux doesn't fit my bill either. My mobile rig is there, my uber rig probably by the end of the year and the one in the middle is taking shape too.

Aside from collecting books it's my only hobby. And The budget needs to comfortably fit. Budget trumps desire.

Hifi is also my longest running hobby at 30+ years and I would not necessarily subscribe to the ”last 10%“ view. In my experience, a ’0-100‘-yardstick to measure against does not exist.

System price ranges and what we value in music reproduction matter. Technology moves too over the years.

I value emotions, insight into the music, being happy while listening, feeling good or miserable depending on the message of the record, being transported away and just being with this marvelous human creation – music.

I come from the 2-channel world and had an uber setup there, which grew over 20 years. And I had the pleasure to hear some amazing systems in other homes.

What to judge by?

Enjoying the music? Feeling satisfied? That's possible with a well put together hi-fi system in almost any price range. It's a question of mindset. I love the moments with my mobile rig as much as the moments with the stationary setups.

Audiophile criteria? Which ones? Then system price ranges do matter. And in the 2-channel world the jumps in quality of reproduction between price ranges is astounding. I know from in depth personal experience up to maybe 500k setups. The higher the price tag the more it matters what one optimizes for and how harmoniously the components are put together. An uber system can suck, it can be so-so and it can induce pure bliss.

The differences might not be as pronounced with head-fi. I do know however after seriously upgrading from a dCS Bartók the improvements in my book were more than worth it and positively material. Investment went up a ton. But then, if wallet allows no harm done. Except for potentially becoming a target of envy.

How do I value the ability to comprehend the inexpressible in the music? Musicians can, but I'm not one of them and it is wonderful to explore the inexpressible in so many works. How valuable is it to really approach analog playback and not yearn for a record player anymore? I owned and loved a rare player right up my ally for some years. What's the value of being easily taken away into music after a long day with a sober mind? How to value being so enveloped in music that the mind quiets down and wanders less and less from music? All these qualities are hard to put on a scale and some click in only in a step-change.

You pose a question which is complex to answer.

You gave a very detailed answer. I really enjoyed reading that and you seem to be doing this hobby proper in my books, that is... to enjoy the music.

 

[572217]

You gave a very detailed answer. I really enjoyed reading that and you seem to be doing this hobby proper in my books, that is... to enjoy the music.

Thank you for your kind reply.

Yes, music is my refuge and a world to explore.

 

[gregorio]

"why are we so willing to pay for such heavy diminishing returns?"

Some people just like to know they’re using something with better figures (say jitter noise/distortion at -140dB instead of -120dB) or of a higher price, a “luxury brand” or better subjective appearance because it enhances their experience of using it.

Logically it makes no sense, that last 5 to 10 percent, why lose an arm and leg over it?

That depends on how you define “that last 5 to 10 percent”. If you’re talking about audible improvements at the high end, then with the exception of some transducers, “that last 5-10%” is actually 0% and sometimes it’s a negative percent. But some might consider materials, visual design and other non-audible aspects to be worth significantly more than 5-10%. And, some might have the disposable income for it simply not to matter.

G

 

[F208Frank]

Some people just like to know they’re using something with better figures (say jitter noise/distortion at -140dB instead of -120dB) or of a higher price, a “luxury brand” or better subjective appearance because it enhances their experience of using it.

That depends on how you define “that last 5 to 10 percent”. If you’re talking about audible improvements at the high end, then with the exception of some transducers, “that last 5-10%” is actually 0% and sometimes it’s a negative percent. But some might consider materials, visual design and other non-audible aspects to be worth significantly more than 5-10%. And, some might have the disposable income for it simply not to matter.

G

Beautiful. Its interesting I find that a lot of head fiers or audiophiles generally are really good with their words and have good writing skills.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I’ve 80% decided I’m getting rid of my estat setup and headphones. It’s just the bass issue. I wanna go all in on planars and dynamics. Estats are nice for resolution, but so are the ribbon ones. End of an era. It was a fun ride, but my genres just need a bit more down low

 

[gregorio]

I’ve 80% decided I’m getting rid of my estat setup and headphones. It’s just the bass issue. I wanna go all in on planars and dynamics. Estats are nice for resolution, but so are the ribbon ones. End of an era. It was a fun ride, but my genres just need a bit more down low

Have you tried EQ? A relatively small low shelf boost could solve your bass issue while at the same time retaining the additional accuracy of your esats.

G

 

[572217]

I’ve 80% decided I’m getting rid of my estat setup and headphones. It’s just the bass issue. I wanna go all in on planars and dynamics. Estats are nice for resolution, but so are the ribbon ones. End of an era. It was a fun ride, but my genres just need a bit more down low

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. Love the Stealth on Riviera as well as the Utopia 2022 on Cayin HA–300MK2 with Takatsuki TA–300Bs.

 

[chesebert]

I’ve 80% decided I’m getting rid of my estat setup and headphones. It’s just the bass issue. I wanna go all in on planars and dynamics. Estats are nice for resolution, but so are the ribbon ones. End of an era. It was a fun ride, but my genres just need a bit more down low

Bass and sub bass are the foundation of musical reproduction. This is true for speakers and headphones. You need the right amount of bass and sub bass to convey body, weight, scale, ambience, among things.

 

[paradoxper]

I’ve 80% decided I’m getting rid of my estat setup and headphones. It’s just the bass issue. I wanna go all in on planars and dynamics. Estats are nice for resolution, but so are the ribbon ones. End of an era. It was a fun ride, but my genres just need a bit more down low

Welcome to the club.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Re: "paying a premium for the last 5-10%" question.. speaking generally here. It really just comes down to the person and their situation. I think a lot of people here make a lot of assumptions. Some people may put a hefty part of their disposable income into the hobby for several reasons.. either they have a lot of it and are financially well, don't have a family support, don't have other hobbies to spread funds across, are frugal across the other aspects of their life, etc.

So really, people just have to find out what their own threshold is and worry less about others. Obviously if people are just wasting money left and right and investigating the hobby in not the most savvy way, that's something to maybe to provide some advice about, but really that's even their choice as well.

And as mentioned above, the idea of 5-10% difference is so subjective. I read in the TOTL disappointment thread an argument that happens over and over in the Stax thread of cheaper stax amps vs. the more expensive TOTL amps. The general consensus and likely truth (I mean for mean, I know it to be an absolute truth), is that some of the cheaper stax amps can be enjoyable, and there's also an obvious boost in performance with the BHSEs, Carbons, etc. of the world. Instead of people making choices for themselves and being confident in them, they just end up arguing extreme points--"there are no differences with the more expensive amps", "the cheap amps are garbage". There would be more honest conversation and valuable exchanges if this dynamic wasn't present. But it is what it is. /rant lol

I’ve 80% decided I’m getting rid of my estat setup and headphones. It’s just the bass issue. I wanna go all in on planars and dynamics. Estats are nice for resolution, but so are the ribbon ones. End of an era. It was a fun ride, but my genres just need a bit more down low

For rap and metal, I'm surprised you lasted with stats and ribbons this long, tbh lol.

Also, I saw your post in I think the raal thread about not really ever being impressed any longer now that you've reached summit-fi and have tried so much. Do you still use your rig often or do you get a bit bored until you can shift gears and try something else hoping to be impressed? Genuinely curious.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

I like him and he sounds good to me (albeit modified)

Yes, both micro and macro.

God no.

Same

And merry Xmas and happy new year, etc.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

I vehemently disagree with the latter. A lot of metal is intense, with many distorted instruments pushed to their extremes which sounds like a painful, jumbled mess on compressed recordings. Proper breathing room gives a metal recording the space it needs and allows for explosive passages that can follow a quieter segment of the song to not shred the user's ears as they frantically fumble for the volume knob.

Album Awake, Dream Theater = must try about (very) good recorded metal music and really good dynamics

Same with Power Windows, Rush.

Etc.

 

[Ciggavelli]

For rap and metal, I'm surprised you lasted with stats and ribbons this long, tbh lol.

Also, I saw your post in I think the raal thread about not really ever being impressed any longer now that you've reached summit-fi and have tried so much. Do you still use your rig often or do you get a bit bored until you can shift gears and try something else hoping to be impressed? Genuinely curious.

Personally, I have got a little bored with headphones recently. I have to switch gears to something else for a while (gaming, etc.). I've been getting back into listening and headphones again after like a month off of not listening to too much music at all. What about you? Have you experienced the same?

 

[chesebert]

It takes years and a lot of practice listening to many different gear in different combinations to be proficient at discerning the quality of gear and how that bears to your own sound reproduction preference. Over time you should be able to listen to a piece of gear and determine whether it would work for you without reliance on any third party confirmation (reviews, influencers, forums) and be confident in your gear selection.