[danny]

Just to set (some) of the record straight.

You do not need to use any sort of DSP to generate a time delay or crossfeed signal.

None of the HeadRoom products use any sort of DSP to generate their crossfeed signals. (as of this writing)

While it is possible to implement a 'reverb' with analog circuitry, we do not do so.

The MAX and the MOH use the same crossfeed circuit topology.

For Vertigo-1 to hear a 'reverb' with the MOH with crossfeed engaged, I suspect one of several things is happening. 1. There is something drastically wrong with the loaner unit he received. I look forward to testing the unit when it returns. (and if there is a problem with it, he will get the opportunity to listen again) 2. What Vertigo-1 is calling 'reverb' and what other people are calling reverb are two different animals (in other words, a communications problem) 3. Vertigo-1 has a natural echo chamber between his ears (something I have been accused of many times myself, a sign of genius in my estimation tion ion on n) 4. Vertigo-1 may process sound differently. Psycho-Acoustics is fascinating.

 

[Vertigo-1]

Thanks for dropping in and setting some things straight danny!

I was hoping to hear from you on this.

At least now we know for sure the MOH and Max contain the same crossfeed circuit. But I'm also curious, does the Cosmic have the same crossfeed circuit then as the MOH (and thus the Max)? The reviewer in the recent Enjoy The Music review on the Cosmic and MOH mentioned that there was an audible difference in the crossfeed between the Cosmic and MOH, even despite them using the same crossfeed. I assume this comes from the bigger and better parts used throughout the MOH. If so, might not the Max owners hear a different (better) crossfeed than what I hear either way on the MOH?

I don't suspect reason 1 myself unless somebody was drunk while building MOH loaner #3 and soldered in a Dolby Pro Logic chip somehow...

. I definitely agree with reason 2 and 4. Number 3 is news to me, and is interesting to know.

 

[kelly]

If Vertigo hasn't specifically mentioned using the Etymotic, I'd have guessed this...

The R10 has cantered drivers so as to pull the soundstage "out of the head", an effect the Headroom Crossfeed is also trying to accomplish. I didn't find the Meier Crossfeed to add as much to the W2002 as it did other headphones and was especially surprised to find that binaural recordings didn't have the realism with the W2002 that they did with other headphones.

I would just assume that a headphone with cantered drivers that has been described by many as having an "auditorium sound" might not work out well with a circuit that is said to "pull the imaging out of the head and recreate a more relaisitc 3d soundstage" might not be a happy marriage.

But... hearing this effect with the Etymotic also pees all over this interpretation and theory. Oh well.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Quote:

I was under the impression that crossfeed/playing with time delays requires a DSP chipset of some sort to implement. If so, I fail to see how the R10s themselves can be generating their own time delayed sounds. And the last time I checked, it wasn't generating any with amps that don't use crossfeed.

An echo is [an]a [echo]time [is]delayed [a]sound, [time]no? [delayed <time>sound, <delayed>no?] <sound, no?> {no?}

The crossfeed circuit adds a time delayed signal *from the other ear*. If done right, this would just blend into the music and would not be heard as an echo, but rather an altered soundstage.

Echoes produce time delayed signals from the same ear. It could mess up the crossfeed signal...

But then as kelly says, other things you've heard, and other equipment you listened to, pees on all these theories.

[hastily goes to take a bath--yuck!]

Joe

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vertigo-1 ....However somewhere down the line some folks did start pointing fingers at the R10 as the source of the problem....

I'm the one who brought up the R10s in this context. But despite the wording, if you look at my post as a whole, it wasn't a finger-pointing exercise in spirit. I go on to mention in that very post that, to my ears, the AKG K-240Studios don't seem compatible with the crossfeed either. Barring a defect somewhere, it's not unreasonable to suspect that maybe there is simply an incompatibility when it comes to your R10's. I still don't understand why it has to be viewed as indicative of anything more than an incompatibility between these specific headphones and this crossfeed, and/or maybe even, as Danny stated, how you individually process the effect with this combination -- especially in light of the fact that this does not appear to be a common experience with most other owners of units with this crossfeed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vertigo-1 But say it is a incompatibility. Is that not a fault of the crossfeed in this case? Is that not a bit of a problem when the crossfeed feature on a $1000 amp is picky and choosy about the headphone it works with, while the introductory DIY amp by JMT with Meier crossfeed works peaches and cream with any headphone I cared to throw at it?

Assuming that the amp's crossfeed isn't defective, then the answer is "not necessarily."

Here's another example of an incompatibility without "fault": Pair speakers that have impedance that dips below 2 or 3 ohms with a very low output power SET tube amp--probably not going to be an ideal setup. Or a pair of speakers that is horribly inefficient with a very low output power SET amp--again, probably not going to go too well. (If a Sony receiver drove said speakers more effectively than the SET amp, would that make it a better piece of gear in general?) Or Martin-Logan CLS speakers in a room that doesn't allow them to be placed far enough away from the back wall (but that works fine with most other speakers). Or low impedance headphones that can drive some headphone amps to clipping. Some things just aren't compatible. Bringing up the DIY amp in comparison the way you did is a bit silly, if you're trying to use it as an indicator of performance in general. Why? Because N'Sync sits better with more people than Dave Brubeck. Because Paradigm Mini Monitors are far less picky than the much more expensive Martin-Logan CLS's in terms of source components and room placement and dimensions. Etc. The DIY amp, for all I know, is a better amp in general (though good, I'd doubt that). But to assume it's so simply because it works with more headphones is, well, silly. If your criteria is simply how many headphones it sounds good with, then, yes, maybe it's better.

If someone posted that their 3wpc SET amp powering their 80dB/watt/meter speakers wasn't working well, and someone suggested they try different speakers or a different amp (depending on which one the person was more attached to), I don't think that person would or should take it as an affront to their equipment or person. It seems that someone earlier in this thread, apparently on your behalf, took the mere suggestion of an incompatibility in this specific case as an affront to your equipment and/or person.

 

[planar]

I think it all comes down to whether you agree or diagree with the designer of that particular amp.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vertigo-1 My original review never pointed fingers at anybody. However somewhere down the line some folks did start pointing fingers at the R10 as the source of the problem, which I think is a bit unfair, given I had no problems in the past with any other amp, any other crossfeed, and the R10s combined.

But no one else has experienced this "reverb," and prior to your most recent posts, even you hadn't mentioned hearing this "reverb" with any other headphones -- so it was a logical suggestion, no? Especially since so few other people have heard HeadRoom's crossfeed with the R10.

You've since said that you hear this "reverb" with Etys, which many others also have. So maybe it's not the R10... maybe it's just you

Quote:

But say it is a incompatibility. Is that not a fault of the crossfeed in this case? Is that not a bit of a problem when the crossfeed feature on a $1000 amp is picky and choosy about the headphone it works with

But it's not -- you're the only person who has ever mentioned this, Vert. People were just trying to come up with logical explanations (besides "Vert just hears weirdly

).

Again, the suggestion that maybe the R10 was the source of the problem was based on the information available at the time (only the R10 demonstrated the problem, while many other people have never heard the problem with any other headphone). Now the information points to you hearing things oddly

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Or to someone wiring in a Dolby processor into the MOH loaner by mistake

 

[Vertigo-1]

Quote:

I think it all comes down to whether you agree or diagree with the designer of that particular amp.

I think you're wrong planar. I think it all comes down to one thing, as determined by everyone else. That Vert hears wierdly. That is one more disclaimer I'll have to be sure to put into all reviews I do from here on out.

 

[dhwilkin]

Do you still have the MOH amp, or did you send it back already? If you've still got it, invite a few of the other Hawaii Head-fiers over to see if they hear the same thing.

 

[Vertigo-1]

I still have it actually. I have to send it back by the 14th, and considering the amount of time it took to get together a date to meet the last time, I'm not sure it's possible to do a meet.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vertigo-1 I think it all comes down to one thing, as determined by everyone else. That Vert hears wierdly. That is one more disclaimer I'll have to be sure to put into all reviews I do from here on out.

LOL! Poor Vert -- we're just giving you a hard time... sort of

 

[Mic]

Regardless of what has been said in this thread Vert, we appreciate you for doing a review.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF LOL! Poor Vert -- we're just giving you a hard time... sort of

Quote:

Originally posted by Vert ...I think it all comes down to one thing, as determined by everyone else. That Vert hears wierdly. That is one more disclaimer I'll have to be sure to put into all reviews I do from here on out....

Vert,
Just think how we AKG 501 lovers feel! We aparently hear differently than most others too, since we like the 501s.

So you're not to only odd man out there dude!!

Happy Listening!

 

[Vertigo-1]

Well, I decided to give the MOH one last listen before shipping her back out. I also decided to try some jazz on kelly's suggestion, so I popped in some Keiko Matsui and donned the R10s/Ety 4Bs.

Switching through all the switch combinations, I do not hear a single trace of reverb or echoes on this CD with either the R10s or Etymotics.

My only guess now is that the crossfeed can be recording dependent...those recordings particularly that have a more echoey nature to begin with might get that magnified. And I think part of it has to do with the extra airy warmth and fullness that the crossfeed injects into the music. It kind of works like this, and I'm sure Max owners will agree with me on this one this time: switch on the crossfeed, and you'll add in the crossfeed feature, and the associated bass, and if needed, the filter. But then switch off that crossfeed, and suddenly you feel as if something drastic is missing in the music. It suddenly sounds thinner and lifeless.

This is exactly akin to the same feeling you'd get if you had a soundcard that had allowed you to add in an artificial 3D feel to the sound. Switch it on, and suddenly you get more bloom and life to the sound, especially effective on cheap speakers. Switch it off, and suddenly things sound boringly plain.

I believe this feeling is part of why I thought there was some form of reverb being added in...the sudden loss in the music when the crossfeed was turned off was just similar to the same feeling I'd get if I switched off the 3D sound enchancement feature on Creative Lab's Soundblaster soundcards. Now I'm not saying the crossfeed is a 3D enhancer when it is on, but rather when you switch it off, the sensation is similar to switching off a 3D enchancer.

So, call it a big false alarm if you will. The Headroom crossfeed does NOT add reverb, but rather turning it off will give you the sensation akin to turning off reverb. Which is what I believed confused my brain previously. So yes, you folks were right. I do hear wierdly. And it was also a miscommuncation in words on my part. Reverb was probably too strong of a word to use to begin with.