[palmfish]

I've posted on a few threads but thought I'd start my own and seek some expert opinions.
 
I'm still pretty new to headphones but I've been learning and listening a lot over the past few weeks.
 
This all started a month ago when I ordered a pair of Sennheiser HD598's to listen to music without disturbing my wife/kids in the evening. I chose them because I thought an open headphone would sound more spacious, my dad had a pair of Sennheisers a long time ago, and I read some nice reviews of them. Anyways, I am using my 80's vintage Carver Receiver (MXR-130), Pioneer PL-707 turntable, Denon DR-M44 cassette deck, and Pioneer DV-578a universal DVD/SACD player. Long story short, the 598s sounded horrible plugged into my receiver - muddy bloated bass that wouldn't go away even with the bass tone control turned all the way down. I ordered a pair of 650s and things improved a lot, but I still wasn't happy - bass is still blooming with no punch or definition. So I brought up my Oppo BDP-83 BluRay player from my home theater and replaced the Pioneer DVD player. The analog output of the Oppo is clearly better than my Pioneer DVD player and everything tightened up pretty well, but I'm still not happy with the sound. Finally, I ordered a Schiit Audio Asgard to see how much (if at all) my Carver Receiver is coloring the sound. I also acquired an HD600 for a three-way comparison.
 
I'm currently in the middle of auditioning the 650, 600, and 598 to see which one suits me best. I'm using my Oppo BDP-83 analog out plugged directly into the Schiit Asgard.
 
My feeling about the 650 is difficult to reconcile. It sounds different depending on the disc I'm spinning. For tight production studio rock, it seems to really sound good - no treble deficiency whatsoever and nice tight bass. Of course the mids are forward in a pleasant way.
 
On the other hand, the problem I have with them is with many close-mike recorded jazz. Here, the low freqs loose their punch and standing bass and bass guitars often bloom. On a lot of these recordings, I do think the forward mids cover (?) the treble and make them sound dark. Gentle wire brush strokes, rim shots, and high hats are sometimes almost completely veiled.
 
On the other hand, the 598 has leaner bass than the 650. It never gets as tight and punchy with rock, but it suffers from the same bloom with jazz. Treble, to my ears, is way too strident. That's personal taste I think, but I much prefer the accurate treble of the 650's when they are singing. What I do really like about the 598 is the airiness and space. They sound more ethereal compared to the thicker 650. They also weigh less, clamp less, and sit more comfortably on my head.
 
For me, the 600 has some qualities of both the 650 and 598. The treble is too bright for my taste and the bass is too lean. Yet, it also doesn't have the airiness of the 598 - it's more closed sounding like the 650. I've pretty much eliminated 600 from contention. I have already had a taste of the 650 sounding really, really good and I want more of that. Trouble is, I can't get it with all of my music for a variety of reasons.
 
Today, I plugged the 650s into my vintage receiver and switched back and forth from the Asgard to adjust the receiver tone controls to closely emulate the sound of the Asgard. It was mostly a success except I couldn't get the receiver to get that last smidge of bass punch that the Asgard delivers. Otherwise, they sound almost identical to me now - to the point where I think I will return the Asgard and seek out an amplifier that will power the 650s to greater heights. Another bonus with the Carver is I can tweak the treble tone control up a couple of dB and get some more treble out of the dark recordings. This kind of validates my impression that the 650s are the ones to keep. Finally, I think the 650's have room to grow with better and better equipment as my system evolves.
 
What I would love to find is a source/(DAC?)/amp/headphone/ combo that has the basic sound character of the 650 but with a smidge more treble, tighter bass control, and a more open, spacious sound.
 
The challenge of course is that every disc is mastered differently (I have, for example, three different recordings of Alan Parsons Project - Turn of a friendly Card, and each of them sounds different), so I can never get a consistent result. I'm wide open for acquiring any components I need to deliver the sound I'm looking for - integrated with my current vintage analog gear or not. I'm frugal and value bang-for-the-buck, so while I'm willing to spend whatever it takes to be happy, I want to get the most for the least. The law of diminishing returns and all...
 
Here's a sampling of some of the music I've used to evaluate...
 
Redbook CD:
 
Steve Winwood - Back in the High Life
Fleetwood Mac - Rumors
Paul Simon - Graceland
Alan Parsons Project - Turn of a Friendly Card
Supertramp - Even in the Quietest Moments
k.d. lang - Ingenue
Lyle Lovit - Joshua Judges Ruth
Diana Krall - The Look of Love
Hugh Masekela - Hope
Holst - The Planets (London - Dutoit/MSO)
 
SACD/DVD-A:
 
Steely Dan - Gaucho
Roxy Music - Avalon
Dire Straits - Brother in Arms
Diana Krall - The Girl in the Other Room
Patricia Barber - Modern Cool
Porcupine Tree - in absentia
Stan Getz - Getz/Gilberto
Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique (RCA - Munch/BSO)
 
Again, with a few exeptions, the jazz discs by and large sound somewhat muddy on the 650s and clear on the 598/600s. For pop/rock, the 650's typically tame the brightness and sound sweet and natural with nice punchy dynamics.
 
I'm curious to hear if others have experienced similar difficulty in categorizing and choosing a setup that matches their listening tastes. Also, I'm wondering if maybe someone has some suggestions on how to better listen to my music. My listening corner is still a clean slate, so I'm open to loading my music on a computer and streaming it digitally to a DAC, or maybe replacing my vintage receiver with a modern receiver than plays well with headphones and speakers. Maybe there is a better choice of amp and/or another model headphone that will better suit my tastes? I would even consider not listening to LP's or tapes through headphones (it doesn't seem like there is any solution that will do digital AND analog well) if that's what it will take to enjoy my heaphones and find some synergy.
 
Hopefully, by including some of my musical taste and a description of what I'm hearing and what I'm looking for someone will have some opinions/advice?

 

[palmfish]

Nobody?

 

[log0]

A good value would be another restored vintage receiver like a Pioneer SX series, the SX-1250 seems to be a perennial favorite of vintage receiver enthusiasts. You have a line in and phono stage and this receiver can drive the most difficult headphones. One of these could set you back $600. I would recommend forgoing the HD650 and upgrading to the LCD-2 if you could spare the cash, you would not regret it. There are plenty on the used market now because of the new revision.
 
We seem to share musical taste, I use a vintage receiver setup as well. I use a Luxman R-1120 receiver and have a SX-1250 in the shop getting restored and use a LCD-2. For jazz, it's fantastic.
 
It's difficult to save money in this hobby, and as such I always try to buy used equipment whenever possible to save a couple dollars

 

[palmfish]

Quote:

A good value would be another restored vintage receiver like a Pioneer SX series, the SX-1250 seems to be a perennial favorite of vintage receiver enthusiasts. You have a line in and phono stage and this receiver can drive the most difficult headphones. One of these could set you back $600. I would recommend forgoing the HD650 and upgrading to the LCD-2 if you could spare the cash, you would not regret it. There are plenty on the used market now because of the new revision.
 
We seem to share musical taste, I use a vintage receiver setup as well. I use a Luxman R-1120 receiver and have a SX-1250 in the shop getting restored and use a LCD-2. For jazz, it's fantastic.
 
It's difficult to save money in this hobby, and as such I always try to buy used equipment whenever possible to save a couple dollars

Hmmm, now that's a possibility. I had (and still have) my Pioneer integrated amp and tuner (SA-5800 and TX-6800) I bought in 1980. They sit on a table at my office with an iPod adapter and Infinity bookshelf speakers. They are fun to play with and nice to look at, but their audio performance is nothing to write home about.
 
I do remember lusting after the Pioneer SX-1250 and lower models, and also comparable units from Kenwood, Marantz, and Sansui - I love those old Sansui's! And $600 for a nice receiver is do-able, but I wonder about the need for service on a 35 year-old receiver to get it back in shape. I spent $300 to get my Carver tuned up last year by a former Carver technician who specializes in restoring Carver and Sunfire gear, and yet even in like-new condition, it still doesn't perform to my satisfaction. Do you think one of these Japanese leviathans will perform any better? I am open to trying, but it sounds like I might be looking at a $800 - $1000 investment and I'm hesitant to roll the dice.
 
You actually hit a nerve with your suggestion though because, I've been thinking that tone controls (what a concept!) might be just what I need to tame those albums I have that just don't sound right no matter what phones/amps I try. I remember the NAD receivers from the 80's had a good reputation and they still make them today. They run about $1000 for a higher-end model.
 
I think a visit to eBay and Craigslist is definitely in order... Another quest! Thanks!

 

[log0]

Good luck! As with buying any vintage gear, there's always a risk. I bought my SX-1250 off ebay for $700 with shipping and it was unrestored with crackling noises. I kick myself in the butt because on audiokarma.org, which is an excellent resource for vintage audio equipment, there was someone selling a freshly restored SX-1250 for $650, all capacitors replaced, etc. Vintage gear is kind of quirky. I bought my Luxman R-1120 off Craigslist for $250 in original condition and I vastly prefer the stock sound to that of my newer Pioneer VSX-1019AHK (a 7.1 modern AVR). I asked my local stereo guy if capacitors need to be replaced after 40+ years of use and he told me not necessarily. I don't know if I agree or disagree, but I can tell you that I enjoy the sound of my 40+ year old receiver more than a modern day AVR which counts for something.
 
A pretty popular headphone amp around here is the Schiit Lyr, it has many great reviews and the sound can be tailored by using tubes. It retails around $450. I'm trying to keep in mind that you are on a budget, but this hobby is like a vacation, you always end up spending more than you plan to! As far as all in one units go, I think many people here would recommend the Audio-GD stuff, you can check out there website below.
 
http://audio-gd.com/PriceList.htm
 
Myself, I'm saving my pennies for a tube integrated like the Leben CS600 or Leben CS300xs which also are highly reviewed here, some people consider this integrated tube receiver the end of the upgrade path for headphone listening. This also meets the criteria of being able to drive speakers which for me is essential considering these amps are such a huge investment.
 
Good luck in whatever you purchase, and remember to enjoy the music

 

[palmfish]

Well, I was up until 2:00 am this morning pouring through eBay and AudioKarma learning a ton about receivers.
 
Not a lot of TOTL receivers out there (Pioneer SX-1250, Sansui G9000, etc.) but I did see plenty of Mid-line Marantz 22xx, Pioneer SX-7xx and 9xx. I also found a handful of Luxman R-1050 which got great reviews on the forums. And I fell head-over-heels for a few Yamaha CR-2020 and 1020.
 
I've read that the Marantz receivers are warm sounding, and I'm not sure I'm looking for that sound, so maybe I should stick with the Japanese ones. On the other hand, my living room speakers are on the bright side, so maybe a Marantz would be a good fit. I do think they are ugly though...
 
I remember a coworker of mine went on this quest last spring to find a Sansui G9000. He bought an 8000, had it restored, then found his holy grail 9000. He offered to sell me the 8000 at that time, but I declined because I thought my Carver Receiver was the bomb. I sent him an e-mail to see if he still has it.
 
I'll read about the Leben amps too! I care more about not wasting money than not spending money. If I have to spend a couple thousand dollars to find what I want, then so be it.
 
I'm surprised that in all my reading on the various threads, nobody talks about tone controls (and none of the boutique integrated amps seem to have them). I know they add to/degrade the signal path, but for most listeners, I think well engineered tone controls would outweigh the downsides of listening to albums that were mastered by an engineer wearing Dr Dre Beats!
 
There is a local hi-fi shop in town that has a good selection of vintage gear too. I bought a lovely Pioneer PL-707 DD turntable from them last year. I'll bring my headphones and iPod to work on Monday and visit them after lunch.
 
Thanks for opening this new can of worms. I'm having a blast!

 

[roadcykler]

Just my opinion here, but I think you're going to find it nearly impossible to find a setup that will sound good with each headphone and each type of disk. Poorly recorded will sound different than "Redbook" cd's will sound different than SACD's and so it goes. You may have to find one that works with what you listen to the majority of the time and live with the rest. And I agree, tone controls are becoming more and more rare and that's too bad.

 

[palmfish]

Quote:

Just my opinion here, but I think you're going to find it nearly impossible to find a setup that will sound good with each headphone and each type of disk. Poorly recorded will sound different than "Redbook" cd's will sound different than SACD's and so it goes. You may have to find one that works with what you listen to the majority of the time and live with the rest. And I agree, tone controls are becoming more and more rare and that's too bad.

 
No, but if I find a high quality headphone amp that has tone controls, at least I'll be able to enjoy more of them...

 
 

 

[log0]

I like what you said about studio engineers mastering their records with Beats by Dre! Hopefully that's only rap music.
 
I don't know if you've noticed, but in this same forum (Headphone Amp Fullsize) there is a great thread for vintage integrated receivers. They really are a true value headphone amp with respect to performance and the added ability to drive speakers or headphones well.
 
I would exercise caution buying this stuff online. The SX-1250 I bought off eBay had the crackling issue that was not disclosed. Tons of pretty pictures and a note about the sound being OK but nothing about crackling. The seller was a true pain in the butt and would not accept a return. If you have anything local (craigslist) I would go give it a listen. I think the tough spot that the vintage receiver puts a buyer in is buying without listening (online) and buying original condition equipment which may require service that could cost you more than 2x what you paid for the receiver in the first place!
 
Still, vintage receivers are somewhat of a gem hunt if you ask me. There is no guaranteed stock of anything and you never know what condition you may find the receiver. I drove some 40 miles to listen to a Marantz 2270 with my LCD-2s. I thought the receiver looked beautiful, but upon listening through headphones there was some crackling and a very warm warm sound. On the other hand, the Luxman R-1120 I found was a true gem, excellent condition physically and sonically. You never know!
 
Good luck on your hunt. I do hear what you say about tone controls. I don't play with them much but the ability to tailor the sound to your liking is a great benefit.
 
On another note, I'd like to highly recommend the original Playstation SCPH-1001 (the one with RCA outputs) as a CD player. These can be had for $20-$30 dollars on eBay, sometimes on Audiogon.com -- don't know if you knew about this website, but it is a fantastic marketplace for used audio equipment, tons better than eBay. Check out the review for the original Playstation on 6moons.com. It really is one of the best deals in audio equipment.

 

[palmfish]

Quote:

I like what you said about studio engineers mastering their records with Beats by Dre! Hopefully that's only rap music.
 
I don't know if you've noticed, but in this same forum (Headphone Amp Fullsize) there is a great thread for vintage integrated receivers. They really are a true value headphone amp with respect to performance and the added ability to drive speakers or headphones well.
 
I would exercise caution buying this stuff online. The SX-1250 I bought off eBay had the crackling issue that was not disclosed. Tons of pretty pictures and a note about the sound being OK but nothing about crackling. The seller was a true pain in the butt and would not accept a return. If you have anything local (craigslist) I would go give it a listen. I think the tough spot that the vintage receiver puts a buyer in is buying without listening (online) and buying original condition equipment which may require service that could cost you more than 2x what you paid for the receiver in the first place!
 
Still, vintage receivers are somewhat of a gem hunt if you ask me. There is no guaranteed stock of anything and you never know what condition you may find the receiver. I drove some 40 miles to listen to a Marantz 2270 with my LCD-2s. I thought the receiver looked beautiful, but upon listening through headphones there was some crackling and a very warm warm sound. On the other hand, the Luxman R-1120 I found was a true gem, excellent condition physically and sonically. You never know!
 
Good luck on your hunt. I do hear what you say about tone controls. I don't play with them much but the ability to tailor the sound to your liking is a great benefit.
 
On another note, I'd like to highly recommend the original Playstation SCPH-1001 (the one with RCA outputs) as a CD player. These can be had for $20-$30 dollars on eBay, sometimes on Audiogon.com -- don't know if you knew about this website, but it is a fantastic marketplace for used audio equipment, tons better than eBay. Check out the review for the original Playstation on 6moons.com. It really is one of the best deals in audio equipment.

The hunt is a big part of the fun of this hobby! Yes, I'm a member at Audiogon and AudioKarma, and I agree that the odds of not getting screwed are significantly better over there.
 
I've been researching integrated amps and receivers (old and new) a lot more today and I'm on the fence between trying a vintage Pioneer, a late model higher-end NAD, or a brand new NAD, Outlaw, or Cambridge Audio. I plan to find out more about the headphone stages in these new units. The Outlaw, for example, has a separate volume control for the headphone jack, implying that it might be a discrete amp (I'm guessing cheap opamp, but who knows).
 
I also checked out the Leben tube amps - and also some other comparable equipment (Audiomat, Conrad Johnson, etc.) Well, I don't need anything quite that high-end and $3000+ for an amp is outside my comfort zone.
 
I will check out the PSOne review.
 
 

 

[palmfish]

In case anyone followed my thread with any interest, I thought I'd close the book and let you know what I ended up with.
 
After much testing and listening, I decided on the Sennheiser HD 600 and Peachtree Audio Nova. They have a great synergy and I think the combination has a really refined and neutral sound. 
 
For those that gave me advice and suggestions, and helped steer me in the right direction - thank you! I am very happy with them!