[El_Doug]

 
Quote:

Well of course there is no physical evidence, and of course I'm not speaking from experience. But being part of a bodybuilding community, and highschool wrestling, you get to see the dirty side of sports.
Here is a small article that is about a red flag being raised for undetectable steroids. Look, if there wasn't a demand for these undetectable steroids, they wouldn't exist. Its that simple.
 
I think alot of you who are skeptical should watch the documentary Bigger Stronger Faster. If you have netflix its a streaming movie. Its just a small documentary that will start to open your eyes about drug use among athletes. 
 
Ulgh, there was a quote from a famous ex olympic runner who said that steroids use is very common.. but i cant find the quote. Bleh.

 
...and you use this to justify yourself?  I take it your parents never gave you the "if everyone else jumped off a bridge" speech

 

[hembergler]

Quote:

I don't get why all these people feel guilty for cheating?  
Again, it might just be because of where I've grown up, or it might just be my generation, but you shouldn't feel guilty for cheating.

 
Umm...

 

[FallenAngel]

Yeah... and you shouldn't feel too bad when people in positions to grade your work send you for academic review after which you fail the class and repeat it if you want the credit.  To put it simply - if this happens at an undergraduate level (university), you may be removed from the program, and you may be extending your stay at the school for an extra year depending on course schedule and prerequisites.  On a graduate level, you may leave quite a scar on your career.  On a professional level in any shared knowledge field, you will likely be fired and may be sued.
 
As for "dog-eat-dog" world... we're talking about education here... there is no "getting ahead", your learning and progress depends on you, not others, you don't get farther than a person that studies by cheating off them.
 
Myself being in a position where I have interviewed and hired a lot of people in the industry, I can tell you right off the bat that when I come across a person with a degree but no real knowledge in the field, I tell them to leave the office and not waste my time (level of politeness varies on their attitude).

 

[nick_charles]

Well Mr Cheaty turned up, signed the charge form and went away. No sense of remorse, shame, embarassment, disgrace, guilt or contrition - Do I need to explain to you why you are being charged --- No .
 
At least I was spared the absurd "I don't know how this happened" pantomime.
 
Fails the course, has to retake it (it is required for graduation),  $7k of tuition down the drain, so stupid !

 

[FallenAngel]

Would have been more of a sense of remorse had they been paying their own tuition and actually caring about their education... oh well, society needs all levels of education for various jobs.

 

[midoo1990]

.

 

[BobSaysHi]

Quote:

I go to one of the best (public) High Schools in the Nation. I will not name the school for obvious reasons.
 
I'm 16, sophomore, and cheating is normal here. I predict that at least 70% of the student population cheats, at least once a week. 
 
Me and my friends will regularly (almost daily) exchange homework A for B. Or person A will do homework X night, while person B will do homework Y night.
 
I have a 3.999 GPA, so don't think I'm ignorant, and i have scored in the top 1%, in the nation, for standardized tests (No Child Left Behind Act), multiple times.
 
But cheating is a regular part of school now days. I do not know of what your generation thought of cheating, but my generation considers cheating completely normal, harmless, and exercises real life situations of "using/exploiting resources".
 
P.S. No child left behind is an utter failure, and i often find that teachers have to cram curriculum in order to accommodate tests. I wholeheartedly feel that the No Child Left Behind Act is actually lowering SAT/ACT scores. Teachers are forced to cram-teach state required curriculum, rather than in-depth lessons, necessary for full understanding. This artificially creates higher test scores for the standardized NCLB tests. On the other hand, not enough information is tought to fully reap the full benefits of the lessons; lowering ACT/SAT scores.
 
Furthermore, school lessons are completely irrelevant to life. Over the past X years, i have learned almost nothing that can be applied to future jobs/everyday life. I have retained virtually no information from previous years.
 
Our school system utterly fails. Teachers know it; students know it. So do not blame the students for taking shortcuts, as there is no reason to go through the overly stressed lifestyle of school, when there are little to very few lessons that we will use. I love being knowledgeable, i love learning about things i dont understand, but I am utterly disgusted by the idea of force-feeding irrelevant education. School should be used to teach lifelong lessons. Not information that will be memorized and quickly disposed of.

This whole post is so close to the truth it's scary. I'll read the rest of the thread when I get home (I finished my HS assignment early)

 

[Xaborus]

Quote:

Yeah... and you shouldn't feel too bad when people in positions to grade your work send you for academic review after which you fail the class and repeat it if you want the credit.  To put it simply - if this happens at an undergraduate level (university), you may be removed from the program, and you may be extending your stay at the school for an extra year depending on course schedule and prerequisites.  On a graduate level, you may leave quite a scar on your career.  On a professional level in any shared knowledge field, you will likely be fired and may be sued.
 
As for "dog-eat-dog" world... we're talking about education here... there is no "getting ahead", your learning and progress depends on you, not others, you don't get farther than a person that studies by cheating off them.
 
Myself being in a position where I have interviewed and hired a lot of people in the industry, I can tell you right off the bat that when I come across a person with a degree but no real knowledge in the field, I tell them to leave the office and not waste my time (level of politeness varies on their attitude).

Assuming that I'm stupid, are you?
 
Again, I've scored in the top 1% multiple times on standardized tests. Tests that you cant study for. In addition to a 3.999 GPA.
 
Just because i occasionally cheat does not mean I'm not knowledgeable. I'm very well respected in school for being "smart"; not just among the "smart" group, but among the general population. Truthfully, i avoid the stuck up "smart group", and have very genuine friends. I hang out with stoners, jocks, preps. Almost every "click" accepts my "click" and I. I may cheat, but i am not scum.
 
I just don't value artificial "book" smarts, and much rather learn/study things that i value and am interested in. 
 
Oh and if you'r wondering, me and my close friends are gamers/jocks. An odd combination, but one that works out well. One of my best friends is actually a stoner. What i have learned is that you should not judge a person, as you have just judged me. I know some people who fail school, and are the most creative people i know. I know people who pass school with straight A's, and totally lack common sense and daily problem solving skills. 
 
Just because you may have grown up with a golden spoon, does not mean those who have not are scum. Just because some people may not have a high level of education on paper, does not mean they are uneducated. 

 

[hembergler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaborus /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Assuming that I'm stupid, are you?
 
Again, I've scored in the top 1% multiple times on standardized tests. Tests that you cant study for. In addition to a 3.999 GPA.
 
Just because i occasionally cheat does not mean I'm not knowledgeable. I'm very well respected in school for being "smart"; not just among the "smart" group, but among the general population. Truthfully, i avoid the stuck up "smart group", and have very genuine friends. I hang out with stoners, jocks, preps. Almost every "click" accepts my "click" and I. I may cheat, but i am not scum.
 
I just don't value artificial "book" smarts, and much rather learn/study things that i value and am interested in. 
 
Oh and if you'r wondering, me and my close friends are gamers/jocks. An odd combination, but one that works out well. One of my best friends is actually a stoner. What i have learned is that you should not judge a person, as you have just judged me. I know some people who fail school, and are the most creative people i know. I know people who pass school with straight A's, and totally lack common sense and daily problem solving skills. 
 
Just because you may have grown up with a golden spoon, does not mean those who have not are scum. Just because some people may not have a high level of education on paper, does not mean they are uneducated. 

And just because you score high on some silly metrics doesn't excuse you from cheating your way through school.
 
(FYI: "click" is spelled clique, and your sentence should be, "...accepts my clique and me.")

 

[Xaborus]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaborus /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Assuming that I'm stupid, are you?
 
Again, I've scored in the top 1% multiple times on standardized tests. Tests that you cant study for. In addition to a 3.999 GPA.
 
Just because i occasionally cheat does not mean I'm not knowledgeable. I'm very well respected in school for being "smart"; not just among the "smart" group, but among the general population. Truthfully, i avoid the stuck up "smart group", and have very genuine friends. I hang out with stoners, jocks, preps. Almost every "click" accepts my "click" and I. I may cheat, but i am not scum.
 
I just don't value artificial "book" smarts, and much rather learn/study things that i value and am interested in. 
 
Oh and if you'r wondering, me and my close friends are gamers/jocks. An odd combination, but one that works out well. One of my best friends is actually a stoner. What i have learned is that you should not judge a person, as you have just judged me. I know some people who fail school, and are the most creative people i know. I know people who pass school with straight A's, and totally lack common sense and daily problem solving skills. 
 
Just because you may have grown up with a golden spoon, does not mean those who have not are scum. Just because some people may not have a high level of education on paper, does not mean they are uneducated. 

And just because you score high on some silly metrics doesn't excuse you from cheating your way through school.
 
(FYI: "click" is spelled clique, and your sentence should be, "...accepts my clique and me.")

Thanks =P spell check can really hurt your grammar and spelling sometimes O_o. Odd but true.
 
Edit: are you sure its my clique and me? Why would it not be I? Like for example, Dylan and I went to the store, is correct. Where as, Dylan and me went to the store, is incorrect. 

 

[marvin]

Quote:

BTW who saw the national news broadcast over education today? 
 
Looks like China is now the smartest/most creative country in the world 

 
(apparently the tests not only test "smarts?" for the lack of a better word, but also tested problem solving and creativity)

The Chinese education system, as with all East Asian education systems, puts an extremely high emphasis on rote memorization and test taking ability. Their extraordinary success compared to the American system has to do with pressure and effort stemming from their culture and brutal educational system. Of course, the top scoring numbers aren't for China as a whole. They're for Shanghai only, and it's not surprising that a handpicked city that happens to be the most developed city in mainland China would score well. It's a bit like taking scores only from [size=x-small]Massachusetts or Vermont [/size]children and claiming that America's school system was the best.
 
Also note that culture matters. When it comes to standardized testing, children of Asian American ethnicity generally maintain the same quarter to half a standard deviation advantage over American children in general that children from East Asian countries do. Coincidence? Highly doubtful.

 

[JxK]

Quote:

Well Mr Cheaty turned up, signed the charge form and went away. No sense of remorse, shame, embarassment, disgrace, guilt or contrition - Do I need to explain to you why you are being charged --- No .
 
At least I was spared the absurd "I don't know how this happened" pantomime.
 
Fails the course, has to retake it (it is required for graduation),  $7k of tuition down the drain, so stupid !

The thing about cheating is that it's not always a black and white area. Now, there will always be those lazy underachievers who simply try to cheat their way through. Or the spoiled rich who pay/bribe their way into getting a degree.  But then you also have people who can occasionally be forced into it by circumstance. Family trouble, death, spousal issues, children...Especially at the graduate level (at my institution, at any rate) lots of students are having their first children born. The difficulties of balancing their workload with a new family can overwhelm people, and sometimes they can be pushed into doing something they'd rather not. It's happened at the institution I'm currently attending more than once.
 
I'm not making excuses for them, but on occasion there are extenuating circumstances, and I feel that the punishment should perhaps take them into account.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Quote:

Well Mr Cheaty turned up, signed the charge form and went away. No sense of remorse, shame, embarassment, disgrace, guilt or contrition - Do I need to explain to you why you are being charged --- No .
 
At least I was spared the absurd "I don't know how this happened" pantomime.
 
Fails the course, has to retake it (it is required for graduation),  $7k of tuition down the drain, so stupid !

The thing about cheating is that it's not always a black and white area.
 
I never take on thse things unless I am 100% certain about them.
 
Now, there will always be those lazy underachievers who simply try to cheat their way through. Or the spoiled rich who pay/bribe their way into getting a degree.  But then you also have people who can occasionally be forced into it by circumstance. Family trouble, death, spousal issues, children...
 
I go out of my way to accomodate students who have genuine problems, but they have to let me know, I'm not psychic.
 
Especially at the graduate level (at my institution, at any rate) lots of students are having their first children born. The difficulties of balancing their workload with a new family can overwhelm people, and sometimes they can be pushed into doing something they'd rather not. It's happened at the institution I'm currently attending more than once.
 
I'm not making excuses for them, but on occasion there are extenuating circumstances, and I feel that the punishment should perhaps take them into account.
 
At xxxxxxxx the first offence does not go on the official record but it is formally lodged so that if there are subsequent offences the penalty does become more serious. This allows students one piece of poor judgment wiith limited consequences.
 
When I was a TA 10 years ago I had a student who cheated on my bonehead IT course, the next year the same student submitted a suspicious piece of work on a programming course I ran, at the time I assumed there was a mistake, I could not believe that the same student would be so stupid as to cheat twice with the same instructor, sadly I was mistaken and he was that stupid and it was a 3rd offence so it was goodbye...
 
 

 

[BobSaysHi]

I just read through this whole thread and I must say that it was very informative. I didn't have any idea what to expect in college.
 
However, I'd like to offer a different perspective, instead of the professors or 4.0 gpa students. I am an "average" 11th grade student. 70-85% in the great majority of classes. 85-90% in a the classes that are important to me.
 
In "regular" classes, students only cheat on tests. They don't have to time or energy to spend cheating.
 
In "Pre-AP" classes, students cheat mainly on homework. About 70% actually do their work, the rest copy off 1 or 2 people. There are facebook groups dedicated to homework answers. No one cheats on tests though, too risky.
 
In "AP" classes, everyone cheats on almost every homework assignment. Most know the material, because they study in giant groups, but don't bother with the homework.
 
I'm ashamed to admit that I cheat on almost everything as well. I haven't done more than two assignments in Pre Calculus, and I honestly haven't learned much. However, the tests are so dumbed down that a student that makes the minimum amount of effort could pass.
 
I only have to study and do work for maybe two classes at any given time, but I study hard. I would have an A+ in AP Psychology, but I failed the first test of the semester, so I have a B+. 

 
Contrary to what you think, I will NEVER need to know the gravitational force between two objects. And I've made every effort possible to forget everything I've learned in Spanish.

 

[nealric]

Interesting discussion. My experiences were much different...
 
People cheated on homework all the time in high school. There was a lot of borderline stuff between asking someone for help and just copying. But there was a lot of BS work. I avoided that scene. There wasn't too much cheating on exams. There was one incident where some kid stole the AP History final out of the teacher's desk and forced us to retake the stupid thing. 
 
I never knew anybody who admitted to cheating in college. The professors rarely assigned BS though. If you knew it, you got a good grade. 
 
Cheating in law school would have been pretty much impossible. Most of the exams were open book, but if you didn't have the material mostly memorized there was no way you were going to do well. Plus, getting caught cheating meant you might never get to sit for the bar.