[Armaegis]

Speaking as a part-time prof and as a guy who runs an afterschool program for kids, the kids are "smarter" at cheating than the adults.

 

[FallenAngel]

The repercussions for being caught should be severe enough to deter the act.
 
Quote:

Speaking as a part-time prof and as a guy who runs an afterschool program for kids, the kids are "smarter" at cheating than the adults.

 

[Armaegis]

You'd think so, but it never seems to take.
 
One problem I've encountered with undergrads (especially "rich kids" from overseas) is that they don't really care. If they get caught, they just shrug and brush it off.

 

[Xaborus]

I'm all for education, but not our education system.
 
It is odd that nobody has brought up the subject of individuality and the very aspect of being creative. 
 
Apparently, A LOT of people on these forums think that forced education is necessary, and makes your mind "work in different ways". Obviously these people have never played video games such as Portal. I can truthfully say i have learned much MUCH more about economics, puzzle solving, scamming (prevention), and thinking "outside" the box from video games, than i have EVER learned in school.
 
A lot of people here seem to think that in some way, forcing an individual to think a certain way -the same as everyone else- allows them to think "differently". This is as relevant as an oxymoron. 

Standardized, forced education does NOT promote creativity. It does exactly the opposite. Instead of pursuing their interests from birth, children are forced to study in subjects which they lack interest, and then lose interest in there very ability to study. 
 
A lot of people here think that education forms "success" and higher level thinking. I don't see this correlation at all.
 
Oftentimes, i see that the most educated are also the most stressed and unhappy. Doctors are a perfect example. There job is extremely stressful, yet people view being a (medical) Doctor highly, simply due to wealth.
 
Education = Wealth.
Wealth ≠ Happiness. 
 
With that said, i am not saying the (extremely) poor are happy, but there must be a balance between everything, in order to be happy. I've had the privilege of traveling the world, oftentimes to my family in XXXXXX third world country. I have lived the life of a person in poverty. I have lived a life without indoor plumbing, aircon, heating, electronics, and may i say that these people that i have met on these journeys are the happiest people i have ever met. 
 
It is hard to imagine that a person who is poor can be happy, but it is truth. I find that the US traditions and culture is very "closed off" and "secretive" with there lives. A close neighborhood community is rare here in the US. In poor countries, community, family, and friends come first, and this is a much happier life than being "rich" from a higher "education" could ever be.

 

[FallenAngel]

I think you'd really love to read about Frederick William Sanderson, he's certainly one of my idols in terms of how to think about modern education systems.
 
I also really don't agree with a set curriculum "forcing" or "causing" students to lose interest or ability to study.  That is a student's personal decision and they make it actively by deciding what they "should" or "shouldn't" "need to learn".
 
You are correct in saying that people generally think "education forms success" in the subject - you can only know a subject by learning it.  Do note that I wrote "in the subject", as a person can be successful in many ways as success can be measured in many different ways.  For this case, I exclusively mean success within a learned field.
 
This is in no way saying that people cannot be successful without formal education, it is simply a lot harder to do so and therefore is more rare.
 
As for the education, wealth and happiness, that is a GROSSLY different subject that should be discussed completely separately.  Everybody has their own idea of personal happiness and people generally value success on different scales (especially across cultures).

 

[odigg]

 
 
Quote:

Apparently, A LOT of people on these forums think that forced education is necessary, and makes your mind "work in different ways". 

 
Forced education is an essential part of every human's life.  You get it from the day you are born.  It teaches you how to think, talk, act, and what is worth putting your energy and interest into.  You don't need a classroom to get a forced education.
 
 
Quote:

Instead of pursuing their interests from birth, children are forced to study in subjects which they lack interest, and then lose interest in there very ability to study. 

 
 Let me ask you a question.  It's fairly well known (in educational circles) that many Asian countries (I grew up in one) have school systems that value cramming and standardized tests over anything else.  To be competitive with the world in an economic sense, this education is highly focused on math and sciences.  By your logic, all this cramming should have effectively killed any interest kids have in these subjects.  Yet many countries in Asia produce a higher percentage of STEM graduates (out of the total number of graduates) than countries in the West.
 
Why is this?  It's because the "forced education" outside of the classroom dictate that these subjects are worth their time an interest.  Their social and economic influences dictate this is what is important and have cultivated their interests.
 
Maybe some kids have some irrepressible inclinations and interests.  But I suspect many children develop their interests as they interact and learn from the world around them.  Educators can help students gain an interest in something.  It's not just about releasing something a person is born with.
 
 
Quote:

Obviously these people have never played video games such as Portal. I can truthfully say i have learned much MUCH more about economics, puzzle solving, scamming (prevention), and thinking "outside" the box from video games, than i have EVER learned in school.

 
Perhaps you should ask, why isn't school interesting?  Why aren't these subjects taught in a way that allows students to find them interesting and meaningful?  Why hasn't the American educational system changed to match the reality that the social and economic situation in the US is different from the rest of the world?  
 
 Many famous educators (e.g John Dewey) have pointed out exactly what you are saying and tried to come up with educational systems try to make school meaningful and interesting for students.  I'll write more about that when I have the time.
 
 
 
 
Quote:

A close neighborhood community is rare here in the US. In poor countries, community, family, and friends come first, and this is a much happier life than being "rich" from a higher "education" could ever be.

 
Meaningful relationships are an essential part of life.  Without them life is pointless.  There are places in the world where groups of people have financial wealth and have strong social networks.  The value of those social networks and the time people put into them is dictated by the "forced education" outside the classroom.  School and financial wealth have not taken away those values in those communities - but I'm sure they have affected them in some negative ways.

 

[odigg]

This is a continuation of my last post
Quote:

 If I was able to, I'd rather have 4 classes that I feel are relevant to what I'd like to pursue. Instead I had to take chemistry (twice, I bombed it the first time).

 
Let me present a scenario for you.  Let me know what you think of it.  I don't know anything about you other than your existence on this forum.  I assume this means you have some interest in headphones.  Let's say that I'm involved in a project developing a new headphone.  Part of this is developing some driver material using a chemical process.  Is this a project you would be interested in?  Would you join me in the lab to work on developing this headphone?  Do you think you'd be willing to learn some chemistry to better understand what's going on in the creation of this new driver material?  You'd probably also need to learn some physics, math, and electronics.  Do you think it would be easier for you to learn these subjects since you have some interesting and meaningful context and a tangible goal?
 
Do you think this project would help you cultivate some interest in chemistry?  Do you think your interests are fixed and will never change?  Will they change based on what you are asked to to?    
 
Instead of saying "I'd rather have 4 classes that I feel are relevant to what I'd like to pursue" why not ask "Why can't we do something in Chemistry that makes it more interesting to me?  Why can't we work on some project where I can learn chemistry and have a reason (that you value) for learning it?"
 
There are schools and educational philosophies that use this method for learning.  It requires a lot of work on the part of the teachers and students and certainly needs a greater investment then what people put into exercise sheets and memorizing "facts."  However, students can cultivate interests and uses for subjects they never really cared for.  Maybe you'd be able to find some use for Chemistry in whatever it is you'd like to pursue since Chemistry would be more than just a bunch of memorized formulas and definitions.

 

[shaggy]

 
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I look at cheating quite plainly - what is the point?  Just getting some score on a test?  That may be important to some, but it does nothing for knowledge gain or intelligence, which means in the end it's nothing more than writing on some paper.  Of course the downside of plagiarism is that it's against school policy and can get you into a lot of trouble (for obvious reasons) and I completely stand behind my point of view that plagiarism should not be tolerated at all.  The idea behind a "higher education" was that it's supposed to mean something, it means the person knows the course content and knows how to apply it.  Cheating somewhat defeats this idea.

If a grade is nothing more than writing on some paper, then why do your grades determine what college you will be going to or which scholarship you are eligible for? In many cases, "writing on some paper" is very important to certain people, particularly religious folks or those employed by the IRS. "higher education" does not mean anything. It is simply an extension of high-school. A very expensive extension.

 
My point exactly - grades should actually MEAN SOMETHING!  If you cheat to get a certain grade, you don't deserve to be in a college requiring a certain level and you certainly don't deserve an education scholarship if you got your marks by cheating!

Yes, but in the same regard the value that society places on grades encourages people to cheat. If you were graduate high school with a 3.7 and consequently not get into prestigious university, or get a 4.0 with the help of cheating and be accepted as a result (which would go a long way towards ensuring getting that high salary job and supporting your family), why would you not cheat? Similarly, having rich parents make a nice donation shouldn't be regarded as a quality admission criteria, but life isn't fair is it?

 

[mcnoiserdc]

I am sorry but I see this "I want to study this because I like it or care or have talent or so" as LAZINESS. 
 
I have met many colleagues at school who would complain because they "won't use it in their life, just a waist of time".
 
Well my experience tells me they are wrong and I am only 26 years old. When I graduated on Biotechnology Engineering I wanted to keep myself in the Academics world, so I went for MsC in Cell lysis for DNA release, new methods for mechanical cell lysis, after spending 6 months in a lab studying prion infectivity and replication. One is about DNA and the other is completely about the protein itself. One year after starting to work with cell lysis and DNA, I won a scholarship for PhD in Prions Study. If I was to choose between subjects I wouldn't go for Cell lysis, or wouldn't have knowledge required to do that Job. But as I took all the Forced Subjects during my 5 year graduation I was prepared to do one or the other thing.
 
When I was to decide what to do in College, I thought Biology engineering area should be the one for me despite my family wanting me to go for medicine. 8 years late despite liking and doing what I desired to do, sometimes I find myself thinking that it wouldn't be a bad Idea if I went for Electronic engineering and computing instead.
But the truth is that you never know how time will change you. I loved some subjects but also didn't like some other subjects too, yet that wasn't an excuse to cheat ever.

 

[mcnoiserdc]

The thing about not cheating is that it is the right and fair thing. 
Well if it was so then every athlete should get doped too. 
 
Quote:

Yes, but in the same regard the value that society places on grades encourages people to cheat. If you were graduate high school with a 3.7 and consequently not get into prestigious university, or get a 4.0 with the help of cheating and be accepted as a result (which would go a long way towards ensuring getting that high salary job and supporting your family), why would you not cheat? Similarly, having rich parents make a nice donation shouldn't be regarded as a quality admission criteria, but life isn't fair is it?

 

[shaggy]

Quote:

I'm all for education, but not our education system.
 
It is odd that nobody has brought up the subject of individuality and the very aspect of being creative. 
 
Apparently, A LOT of people on these forums think that forced education is necessary, and makes your mind "work in different ways". Obviously these people have never played video games such as Portal. I can truthfully say i have learned much MUCH more about economics, puzzle solving, scamming (prevention), and thinking "outside" the box from video games, than i have EVER learned in school.
 
A lot of people here seem to think that in some way, forcing an individual to think a certain way -the same as everyone else- allows them to think "differently". This is as relevant as an oxymoron. 

Standardized, forced education does NOT promote creativity. It does exactly the opposite. Instead of pursuing their interests from birth, children are forced to study in subjects which they lack interest, and then lose interest in there very ability to study. 
 
A lot of people here think that education forms "success" and higher level thinking. I don't see this correlation at all.
 
Oftentimes, i see that the most educated are also the most stressed and unhappy. Doctors are a perfect example. There job is extremely stressful, yet people view being a (medical) Doctor highly, simply due to wealth.
 
Education = Wealth.
Wealth ≠ Happiness. 
 
With that said, i am not saying the (extremely) poor are happy, but there must be a balance between everything, in order to be happy. I've had the privilege of traveling the world, oftentimes to my family in XXXXXX third world country. I have lived the life of a person in poverty. I have lived a life without indoor plumbing, aircon, heating, electronics, and may i say that these people that i have met on these journeys are the happiest people i have ever met. 
 
It is hard to imagine that a person who is poor can be happy, but it is truth. I find that the US traditions and culture is very "closed off" and "secretive" with there lives. A close neighborhood community is rare here in the US. In poor countries, community, family, and friends come first, and this is a much happier life than being "rich" from a higher "education" could ever be.

bitching about the education system isn't going to get you anywhere, homeboy
 
You having having to take chemistry twice speaks volumes more your lack of work ethic and inability to overcome an unwelcome challenge, than the failure that you call the US education system. I'm sure your peers passed that class just fine. Although I personally also struggle to do well in chemistry, and find that all my past chemistry teachers and professors absolutely fail at teaching, passing any class, including chemistry, requires only minimal effort, which you didn't exert.
 
Also don't pretend to know what's it's like to be poor and that having good social relationships is "happiness." Trust me, if you actually had to live "the life of a person in poverty. . .without indoor plumbing, aircon, heating, electronics," you would be begging to be in a classroom study chemistry. Many people don't even have the luxury of clean water, not to mention a free education. Likewise, financial difficulty will easily destroy any relationship between "community, family, and friends," which you seem to hold in such high regard, and equate to "happiness." 

 

[shaggy]

Quote:

Standardized, forced education does NOT promote creativity. It does exactly the opposite. Instead of pursuing their interests from birth, children are forced to study in subjects which they lack interest, and then lose interest in there very ability to study. 
 
A lot of people here think that education forms "success" and higher level thinking. I don't see this correlation at all.

Ok, then go to art school and learn some creativity. I'm sure you will be very successful and wealthy as a result.

 

[shaggy]

Quote:

The thing about not cheating is that it is the right and fair thing. 
Well if it was so then every athlete should get doped too. 
 
Quote:

Yes, but in the same regard the value that society places on grades encourages people to cheat. If you were graduate high school with a 3.7 and consequently not get into prestigious university, or get a 4.0 with the help of cheating and be accepted as a result (which would go a long way towards ensuring getting that high salary job and supporting your family), why would you not cheat? Similarly, having rich parents make a nice donation shouldn't be regarded as a quality admission criteria, but life isn't fair is it?

 

 
Actually lots of professional athletes do get doped. Not everyone is lucky and is born a genius or is super athletic. Doping and cheating levels the playing field when so much is on the line based on how well you perform in a game or on an exam.
 
Nothing in life is "right and fair". If cheating ensures success and a quality life for your family, why not do it? 

 

[mcnoiserdc]

 
Quote:

bitching about the education system isn't going to get you anywhere, homeboy
 
You having having to take chemistry twice speaks volumes more your lack of work ethic and inability to overcome an unwelcome challenge, than the failure that you call the US education system. I'm sure your peers passed that class just fine. Although I personally also struggle to do well in chemistry, and find that all my past chemistry teachers and professors absolutely fail at teaching, passing any class, including chemistry, requires only minimal effort, which you didn't exert.
 
Also don't pretend to know what's it's like to be poor and that having good social relationships is "happiness." Trust me, you would be begging to be in a classroom study chemistry. Many people don't even have the luxury of clean water, not to mention a free education. Likewise, financial difficulty will easily destroy any relationship between "community, family, and friends," which you seem to hold in such high regard, and equate to "happiness." 

FUnny is that I have lived through not having " indoor plumbing, aircon, heating, electronics," and now when I remember those days I just remember the happiness and the easiness that life was then. I only have good memories. At some point I think what if we just want to have all these things because of the today's establishment that makes one to want lots of things and consider a few things to be important and others useless.
In my mind what makes one happy is to achieve the success in the environment where one is.
 

 

[mcnoiserdc]

Why not steal and deal in controlled substance then?
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SUBMIT
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The thing about not cheating is that it is the right and fair thing. 
Well if it was so then every athlete should get doped too. 
 
Quote:

Yes, but in the same regard the value that society places on grades encourages people to cheat. If you were graduate high school with a 3.7 and consequently not get into prestigious university, or get a 4.0 with the help of cheating and be accepted as a result (which would go a long way towards ensuring getting that high salary job and supporting your family), why would you not cheat? Similarly, having rich parents make a nice donation shouldn't be regarded as a quality admission criteria, but life isn't fair is it?

 

 
Actually lots of professional athletes do get doped. Not everyone is lucky and is born a genius or is super athletic. Doping and cheating levels the playing field when so much is on the line based on how well you perform in a game or on an exam.
 
Nothing in life is "right and fair". If cheating ensures success and a quality life for your family, why not do it?