[marvin]

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Contrary to what you think, I will NEVER need to know the gravitational force between two objects

 
No one thinks that the average person needs to know that sort of thing. The reason why physics (and calculus) are taught at all is because they're good ways of stretching most students' minds. Both subjects are abstract enough that few students find them intuitive, and so they are good ways of adding a bit of challenge to school. Besides, any college degree in the hard sciences or engineering will require a basic education in physics and calculus, so might as well get cracking early.

 

[BobSaysHi]

^Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand the purpose of knowing it. I am taking AP Physics next year because the physics class this year is a complete joke.
 
The sheer amount of BS work I have to do is incredible. I wish teachers would teach us, send us home to read over the material that we just learned in class, and have us come back and take a quiz. This wouldn't work for every class, of course, but for Social Studies and  Science I would learn twice as much stuff instead of having to do busywork all ******* day.
 
I learn more by myself anyway. I've just started reading through a electronic engineering textbook on my own. I'd like to continue it in college, but I am unsure if I can get into a decent college with my grades.
 
Also, I do care about some classes a lot. My Psychology teacher actually teaches us something every class, and I go to her class every day ready to learn something new.

 

[FallenAngel]

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Yeah... and you shouldn't feel too bad when people in positions to grade your work send you for academic review after which you fail the class and repeat it if you want the credit.  To put it simply - if this happens at an undergraduate level (university), you may be removed from the program, and you may be extending your stay at the school for an extra year depending on course schedule and prerequisites.  On a graduate level, you may leave quite a scar on your career.  On a professional level in any shared knowledge field, you will likely be fired and may be sued.
 
As for "dog-eat-dog" world... we're talking about education here... there is no "getting ahead", your learning and progress depends on you, not others, you don't get farther than a person that studies by cheating off them.
 
Myself being in a position where I have interviewed and hired a lot of people in the industry, I can tell you right off the bat that when I come across a person with a degree but no real knowledge in the field, I tell them to leave the office and not waste my time (level of politeness varies on their attitude).

Assuming that I'm stupid, are you?
 
Again, I've scored in the top 1% multiple times on standardized tests. Tests that you cant study for. In addition to a 3.999 GPA.
 
Just because i occasionally cheat does not mean I'm not knowledgeable. I'm very well respected in school for being "smart"; not just among the "smart" group, but among the general population. Truthfully, i avoid the stuck up "smart group", and have very genuine friends. I hang out with stoners, jocks, preps. Almost every "click" accepts my "click" and I. I may cheat, but i am not scum.
 
I just don't value artificial "book" smarts, and much rather learn/study things that i value and am interested in. 
 
Oh and if you'r wondering, me and my close friends are gamers/jocks. An odd combination, but one that works out well. One of my best friends is actually a stoner. What i have learned is that you should not judge a person, as you have just judged me. I know some people who fail school, and are the most creative people i know. I know people who pass school with straight A's, and totally lack common sense and daily problem solving skills. 
 
Just because you may have grown up with a golden spoon, does not mean those who have not are scum. Just because some people may not have a high level of education on paper, does not mean they are uneducated. 

I'm not assuming anything or judging anybody, reread it, there is no personal aggression in my message, do extend me the same courtesy (golden spoon).
 
I look at cheating quite plainly - what is the point?  Just getting some score on a test?  That may be important to some, but it does nothing for knowledge gain or intelligence, which means in the end it's nothing more than writing on some paper.  Of course the downside of plagiarism is that it's against school policy and can get you into a lot of trouble (for obvious reasons) and I completely stand behind my point of view that plagiarism should not be tolerated at all.  The idea behind a "higher education" was that it's supposed to mean something, it means the person knows the course content and knows how to apply it.  Cheating somewhat defeats this idea.

 

[Xaborus]

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^Oh, don't get me wrong, I understand the purpose of knowing it. I am taking AP Physics next year because the physics class this year is a complete joke.
 
The sheer amount of BS work I have to do is incredible. I wish teachers would teach us, send us home to read over the material that we just learned in class, and have us come back and take a quiz. This wouldn't work for every class, of course, but for Social Studies and  Science I would learn twice as much stuff instead of having to do busywork all ******* day.
 
I learn more by myself anyway. I've just started reading through a electronic engineering textbook on my own. I'd like to continue it in college, but I am unsure if I can get into a decent college with my grades.
 
Also, I do care about some classes a lot. My Psychology teacher actually teaches us something every class, and I go to her class every day ready to learn something new.

Exactly as i said, i learn better on my own.
 
Again, i have many friends who are average students. Some of which get detention or ISS (in school suspension) from time to time. In my school, they put you in a room supervised by a teacher, assign 2-3 days of work, and let you figure it out for yourself.
 
*Every* student that i know who has had iss or detention does not look to it as punishment, and most view it as a positive aspect. Every person i know says that they learn the material much quicker from the textbooks, and get much more done in the allowed time frame. Its not uncommon to have a friend get detention/iss and be 3 days ahead of work than the rest of the class. 

 

[Xaborus]

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Yeah... and you shouldn't feel too bad when people in positions to grade your work send you for academic review after which you fail the class and repeat it if you want the credit.  To put it simply - if this happens at an undergraduate level (university), you may be removed from the program, and you may be extending your stay at the school for an extra year depending on course schedule and prerequisites.  On a graduate level, you may leave quite a scar on your career.  On a professional level in any shared knowledge field, you will likely be fired and may be sued.
 
As for "dog-eat-dog" world... we're talking about education here... there is no "getting ahead", your learning and progress depends on you, not others, you don't get farther than a person that studies by cheating off them.
 
Myself being in a position where I have interviewed and hired a lot of people in the industry, I can tell you right off the bat that when I come across a person with a degree but no real knowledge in the field, I tell them to leave the office and not waste my time (level of politeness varies on their attitude).

Assuming that I'm stupid, are you?
 
Again, I've scored in the top 1% multiple times on standardized tests. Tests that you cant study for. In addition to a 3.999 GPA.
 
Just because i occasionally cheat does not mean I'm not knowledgeable. I'm very well respected in school for being "smart"; not just among the "smart" group, but among the general population. Truthfully, i avoid the stuck up "smart group", and have very genuine friends. I hang out with stoners, jocks, preps. Almost every "click" accepts my "click" and I. I may cheat, but i am not scum.
 
I just don't value artificial "book" smarts, and much rather learn/study things that i value and am interested in. 
 
Oh and if you'r wondering, me and my close friends are gamers/jocks. An odd combination, but one that works out well. One of my best friends is actually a stoner. What i have learned is that you should not judge a person, as you have just judged me. I know some people who fail school, and are the most creative people i know. I know people who pass school with straight A's, and totally lack common sense and daily problem solving skills. 
 
Just because you may have grown up with a golden spoon, does not mean those who have not are scum. Just because some people may not have a high level of education on paper, does not mean they are uneducated. 

I'm not assuming anything or judging anybody, reread it, there is no personal aggression in my message, do extend me the same courtesy (golden spoon).
 
I look at cheating quite plainly - what is the point?  Just getting some score on a test?  That may be important to some, but it does nothing for knowledge gain or intelligence, which means in the end it's nothing more than writing on some paper.  Of course the downside of plagiarism is that it's against school policy and can get you into a lot of trouble (for obvious reasons) and I completely stand behind my point of view that plagiarism should not be tolerated at all.  The idea behind a "higher education" was that it's supposed to mean something, it means the person knows the course content and knows how to apply it.  Cheating somewhat defeats this idea.

I agree that the point of education is to obtain knowledge, but i do not agree with BS work. Once a school introduces BS work, students lose all interest and begin to utterly not care. If a class has no BS work, i do not mind doing all the homework on my own, but as soon as a teacher introduces BS work, i stop working in that class and allow my friends to do the work for me. Of course, this is a give in take system, and no one individual is "parasitic" off another friend. 
 
Lesson: If you want students to learn, make the class interesting and don't assign ridiculously hard/lengthy homework. If a student is not interested in the course, he will not learn. End of story. He might retain the information long enough to pass tests, but he will never absorb the knowledge completely.

 

[BobSaysHi]

Ah, I completely agree with you. 100%.
 
College is a different story, however.You are paying for your education. If a person cheats in college, I don't think he will make it very far in the real world

 

[marvin]

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Lesson: If you want students to learn, make the class interesting and don't assign ridiculously hard/lengthy homework. If a student is not interested in the course, he will not learn. End of story. He might retain the information long enough to pass tests, but he will never absorb the knowledge completely.

Nonsensical. Students won't absorb the information if they don't want to absorb the information. That's why schools tend to provide motivation in a rather stick like form. There's a reason why East Asian schooling systems put such an extreme emphasis on the value of hard work. It's the only sure way to force student to learn material to a level well beyond the point where the student would have otherwise given up. Not to mention that if anything you're seeing in high school course work is "ridiculously hard", you've clearly not mastered the material.

 
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Ah, I completely agree with you. 100%.
 
College is a different story, however.You are paying for your education. If a person cheats in college, I don't think he will make it very far in the real world

There's nothing magical about college. For the majority of the population, an undergraduate degree imparts nothing of financial value other than a certificate indicating that the graduate likely has a level of intelligence that falls within a certain range and can likely apply themselves to the extent that is necessary to obtain said certificate. Cheating your way through high school in order to enter a more prestigious college, and then through college in order to improve your relative standing is an excellent way of maximizing the signaling value of your diploma and improving your employment prospects.

 

[BobSaysHi]

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There's nothing magical about college. For the majority of the population, an undergraduate degree imparts nothing of financial value other than a certificate indicating that the graduate likely has a level of intelligence that falls within a certain range and can likely apply themselves to the extent that is necessary to obtain said certificate.

I can't believe I read through this whole thread without knowing what an undergraduate degree was.

 

[FallenAngel]

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Yeah... and you shouldn't feel too bad when people in positions to grade your work send you for academic review after which you fail the class and repeat it if you want the credit.  To put it simply - if this happens at an undergraduate level (university), you may be removed from the program, and you may be extending your stay at the school for an extra year depending on course schedule and prerequisites.  On a graduate level, you may leave quite a scar on your career.  On a professional level in any shared knowledge field, you will likely be fired and may be sued.
 
As for "dog-eat-dog" world... we're talking about education here... there is no "getting ahead", your learning and progress depends on you, not others, you don't get farther than a person that studies by cheating off them.
 
Myself being in a position where I have interviewed and hired a lot of people in the industry, I can tell you right off the bat that when I come across a person with a degree but no real knowledge in the field, I tell them to leave the office and not waste my time (level of politeness varies on their attitude).

Assuming that I'm stupid, are you?
 
Again, I've scored in the top 1% multiple times on standardized tests. Tests that you cant study for. In addition to a 3.999 GPA.
 
Just because i occasionally cheat does not mean I'm not knowledgeable. I'm very well respected in school for being "smart"; not just among the "smart" group, but among the general population. Truthfully, i avoid the stuck up "smart group", and have very genuine friends. I hang out with stoners, jocks, preps. Almost every "click" accepts my "click" and I. I may cheat, but i am not scum.
 
I just don't value artificial "book" smarts, and much rather learn/study things that i value and am interested in. 
 
Oh and if you'r wondering, me and my close friends are gamers/jocks. An odd combination, but one that works out well. One of my best friends is actually a stoner. What i have learned is that you should not judge a person, as you have just judged me. I know some people who fail school, and are the most creative people i know. I know people who pass school with straight A's, and totally lack common sense and daily problem solving skills. 
 
Just because you may have grown up with a golden spoon, does not mean those who have not are scum. Just because some people may not have a high level of education on paper, does not mean they are uneducated. 

I'm not assuming anything or judging anybody, reread it, there is no personal aggression in my message, do extend me the same courtesy (golden spoon).
 
I look at cheating quite plainly - what is the point?  Just getting some score on a test?  That may be important to some, but it does nothing for knowledge gain or intelligence, which means in the end it's nothing more than writing on some paper.  Of course the downside of plagiarism is that it's against school policy and can get you into a lot of trouble (for obvious reasons) and I completely stand behind my point of view that plagiarism should not be tolerated at all.  The idea behind a "higher education" was that it's supposed to mean something, it means the person knows the course content and knows how to apply it.  Cheating somewhat defeats this idea.

I agree that the point of education is to obtain knowledge, but i do not agree with BS work. Once a school introduces BS work, students lose all interest and begin to utterly not care. If a class has no BS work, i do not mind doing all the homework on my own, but as soon as a teacher introduces BS work, i stop working in that class and allow my friends to do the work for me. Of course, this is a give in take system, and no one individual is "parasitic" off another friend. 
 
Lesson: If you want students to learn, make the class interesting and don't assign ridiculously hard/lengthy homework. If a student is not interested in the course, he will not learn. End of story. He might retain the information long enough to pass tests, but he will never absorb the knowledge completely.

 
I don't think any single student is in any position to state what is "BS work" and claim they shouldn't be responsible for learning it.  Most of the people I went to high school with said, as someone in the thread has, that they will never need to know the gravitational pull between 2 objects... well there goes every physicist in the world, no more space exploration, no more satellites for GPS, communications or the idiot tube... Most people I know have said they will never need to know the works of Marx, Heideggar, Nietzsche, etc... there goes philosophy out the window.  Countless other examples of people claiming that they don't care about a subject.  If somebody doesn't care about learning something, it does not make it any less important to another.  That I guess is the true value of education, it is important for some, and they should be given the chance to learn it.  If some people don't want to learn something, simply don't take it, don't study it, don't waste the professor's time.  Taking a course, claiming it as BS, faking the work just to get a mark and having yourself falsely labelled as "knowing" the subject (in transcript, graduation documents, etc) causes nothing but harm to people who actually know it (they have to start proving this to weed out the fakers) and certainly makes it an interesting discussion between a person with a degree and no knowledge of the course content and a person who knows it; especially interesting if such a person decides to work in a related professional field.
 
I guess my point of view is much more relevant to voluntary education over non-mandatory education (pre-16-year old high school forced on students until legal "drop-out" age).  Then again, I think it's still relevant for any form of education; if a person does not know the course content, they should not be allowed to claim they do (aka pass the class) - if they cheat, they should not be allowed to pass the course until they can finish the content on their own.  It's a simple idea: you pass the class if and only if you know the content.

 

[shaggy]

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I look at cheating quite plainly - what is the point?  Just getting some score on a test?  That may be important to some, but it does nothing for knowledge gain or intelligence, which means in the end it's nothing more than writing on some paper.  Of course the downside of plagiarism is that it's against school policy and can get you into a lot of trouble (for obvious reasons) and I completely stand behind my point of view that plagiarism should not be tolerated at all.  The idea behind a "higher education" was that it's supposed to mean something, it means the person knows the course content and knows how to apply it.  Cheating somewhat defeats this idea.

If a grade is nothing more than writing on some paper, then why do your grades determine what college you will be going to or which scholarship you are eligible for? In many cases, "writing on some paper" is very important to certain people, particularly religious folks or those employed by the IRS. "higher education" does not mean anything. It is simply an extension of high-school. A very expensive extension.
 


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There's nothing magical about college. For the majority of the population, an undergraduate degree imparts nothing of financial value other than a certificate indicating that the graduate likely has a level of intelligence that falls within a certain range and can likely apply themselves to the extent that is necessary to obtain said certificate. Cheating your way through high school in order to enter a more prestigious college, and then through college in order to improve your relative standing is an excellent way of maximizing the signaling value of your diploma and improving your employment prospects.

 
 
You're writing scripture, my friend. Inspired by God or logic, may I ask?

 

[BobSaysHi]

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I don't think any single student is in any position to state what is "BS work" and claim they shouldn't be responsible for learning it.  Most of the people I went to high school with said, as someone in the thread has, that they will never need to know the gravitational pull between 2 objects... well there goes every physicist in the world, no more space exploration, no more satellites for GPS, communications or the idiot tube... Most people I know have said they will never need to know the works of Marx, Heideggar, Nietzsche, etc... there goes philosophy out the window.  Countless other examples of people claiming that they don't care about a subject.  If somebody doesn't care about learning something, it does not make it any less important to another.  That I guess is the true value of education, it is important for some, and they should be given the chance to learn it.  If some people don't want to learn something, simply don't take it, don't study it, don't waste the professor's time.  Taking a course, claiming it as BS, faking the work just to get a mark and having yourself falsely labelled as "knowing" the subject (in transcript, graduation documents, etc) causes nothing but harm to people who actually know it (they have to start proving this to weed out the fakers) and certainly makes it an interesting discussion between a person with a degree and no knowledge of the course content and a person who knows it; especially interesting if such a person decides to work in a related professional field.
 
I guess my point of view is much more relevant to voluntary education over non-mandatory education (pre-16-year old high school forced on students until legal "drop-out" age).  Then again, I think it's still relevant for any form of education; if a person does not know the course content, they should not be allowed to claim they do (aka pass the class) - if they cheat, they should not be allowed to pass the course until they can finish the content on their own.  It's a simple idea: you pass the class if and only if you know the content.

Woah woah woah... Slow down. I said I don't need to learn gravitational forces. Those positions are very important, but I will not be a Physicist or Philosopher. Why should I have to learn Physics if I don't need to. I realize this is the typical teenage student's reaction to the problem, and my opinion will probably change after I'm through with school, but I completely stand by it. If I was able to, I'd rather have 4 classes that I feel are relevant to what I'd like to pursue. Instead I had to take chemistry (twice, I bombed it the first time).
 
Not everything is BS work. I  understand the need to give us homework assignments in Math and have us write essays in English, but I do understand BS work when I see it. There is a point where we have learned the material and are ready to be tested over it, not fill out worksheets.
 
Also, I completely agree with your opinion in the second paragraph. 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

It does not matter what you are learning, so much as you are being trained to learn. School and further education is about being able to use your mind to its fullest extent and gain the skills of communication, problem solving and what is needed to research and develop. As you get closer to what job you will actually do, then more specific learning is best, but never dismiss having a broad general knowledge base. you never know when it may come in handy.

 

[FallenAngel]

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It does not matter what you are learning, so much as you are being trained to learn. School and further education is about being able to use your mind to its fullest extent and gain the skills of communication, problem solving and what is needed to research and develop. As you get closer to what job you will actually do, then more specific learning is best, but never dismiss having a broad general knowledge base. you never know when it may come in handy.

Also very true; I had worked for a Director of IT previously... he had a PhD in Chemistry.  It's not at all related to his current work, but it shows he can really learn.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I think that having a general degree or one that is not necessarily related to your work can help you to think out of the box and be more imaginative. That does not mean I want doctors to have arts degrees, I am generalising.
 
If you cheat, you are not learning how to learn, you are learning how to bluff, blag, wing it or however you want to put it. Not exactly great skills towards being productive.

 

[FallenAngel]

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I look at cheating quite plainly - what is the point?  Just getting some score on a test?  That may be important to some, but it does nothing for knowledge gain or intelligence, which means in the end it's nothing more than writing on some paper.  Of course the downside of plagiarism is that it's against school policy and can get you into a lot of trouble (for obvious reasons) and I completely stand behind my point of view that plagiarism should not be tolerated at all.  The idea behind a "higher education" was that it's supposed to mean something, it means the person knows the course content and knows how to apply it.  Cheating somewhat defeats this idea.

If a grade is nothing more than writing on some paper, then why do your grades determine what college you will be going to or which scholarship you are eligible for? In many cases, "writing on some paper" is very important to certain people, particularly religious folks or those employed by the IRS. "higher education" does not mean anything. It is simply an extension of high-school. A very expensive extension.

 
My point exactly - grades should actually MEAN SOMETHING!  If you cheat to get a certain grade, you don't deserve to be in a college requiring a certain level and you certainly don't deserve an education scholarship if you got your marks by cheating!