SONY WH1000XM3 - better than QC35 in noise cancelling?
Nov 12, 2018 at 1:35 PM Post #856 of 2,082
No ANC. It's for a completely different market from XM3 and QC35.
Even though, the reviewer referred to xm3 and px more than once.
I don't know how well passive isolation can be on the M50 but from what I read on this thread, some people may prefer the sound signature of a monitoring headphone more than the trendy bass sony uses for the mx3, even if they sacrifice ANC.
 
Nov 12, 2018 at 5:49 PM Post #858 of 2,082
Hey guys, just curious to those who own these....I have fairly thick, spiky hair that isn't too long. I find with most times when I use headphones, they tend to flatten my hair, leaving me with headphone hair. My Beyerdynamic T51i didn't do this; do these headphones do this? Asking due to wanting them for travel without the embarrassment of headphone hair haha.
 
Nov 12, 2018 at 5:56 PM Post #859 of 2,082
Hey guys, just curious to those who own these....I have fairly thick, spiky hair that isn't too long. I find with most times when I use headphones, they tend to flatten my hair, leaving me with headphone hair. My Beyerdynamic T51i didn't do this; do these headphones do this? Asking due to wanting them for travel without the embarrassment of headphone hair haha.
Unfortunately, they probably would give you headphone hair. They sit somewhat-heavy on the middle of your head. I don't have too much hair left so I don't need to worry about it :)
 
Nov 12, 2018 at 5:59 PM Post #860 of 2,082
Unfortunately, they probably would give you headphone hair. They sit somewhat-heavy on the middle of your head. I don't have too much hair left so I don't need to worry about it :)
Ah shame! I tried these on briefly at my local audio shop and although it felt really comfortable, and somewhat light, was unsure if it would be a tad heavy. Thanks for your response! Really wanted to own a pair for international travels! :'(
 
Nov 13, 2018 at 12:17 PM Post #861 of 2,082
Ah shame! I tried these on briefly at my local audio shop and although it felt really comfortable, and somewhat light, was unsure if it would be a tad heavy. Thanks for your response! Really wanted to own a pair for international travels! :'(
They definitely aren't as bad as other headphones, for sure. And after a long international flight, everyone's hair is going to be messed up haha.
 
Nov 14, 2018 at 1:11 PM Post #862 of 2,082
Hey guys, just curious to those who own these....I have fairly thick, spiky hair that isn't too long. I find with most times when I use headphones, they tend to flatten my hair, leaving me with headphone hair. My Beyerdynamic T51i didn't do this; do these headphones do this? Asking due to wanting them for travel without the embarrassment of headphone hair haha.
LOL, you'll get headphone hair.

Dude, I love this hobby so much, I actually decided to shave my head to avoid the issue altogether! No joke!
 
Nov 14, 2018 at 1:13 PM Post #863 of 2,082
LOL, you'll get headphone hair.

Dude, I love this hobby so much, I actually decided to shave my head to avoid the issue altogether! No joke!
Just 1 reminder, don't shaved the wrong head. Lol .
 
Nov 14, 2018 at 1:23 PM Post #864 of 2,082
Just an update on the popping issue I have been having - it has gotten worse, it is practically rattling when I am walking. Almost any head movement triggers it now, even after running the equaliser again. Also the skipping/dropouts are happening even when at home as well (phone is 1ft to 2ft away). I wonder if something is loose in the headphones. Sent them back today.
 
Nov 14, 2018 at 11:13 PM Post #865 of 2,082
test_lesnumeriques-sony_wh_1000xm3-m04repfreqfil.png


For those who wonder, here's the frequency response of the headphones when turned off (gray line) vs ANC on and wired.

https://www.lesnumeriques.com/casque-audio/sony-wh-1000xm3-p45685/test.html
 
Nov 15, 2018 at 10:13 AM Post #866 of 2,082
Just an update on the popping issue I have been having - it has gotten worse, it is practically rattling when I am walking. Almost any head movement triggers it now, even after running the equaliser again. Also the skipping/dropouts are happening even when at home as well (phone is 1ft to 2ft away). I wonder if something is loose in the headphones. Sent them back today.

Is that a physical ratting (as if something loose in the cups or structural squeaks) or possible artifacts from ANC/mics going wild?
Do you get those noises even with ANC (and ambient sound mode) off and while powered off?
 
Nov 15, 2018 at 10:31 AM Post #867 of 2,082
So my 1000X M3 arrived. Thought I'd do a bit of a disorganized brain dump regarding that experience side-by-side with the original 1000X [M1]....

Here they are...

jM1nF1j.jpg


Opening the box...:
The nice interior reusable cardboard box of the 1000X is gone. It's now shipped in a cheaper box. The case is about the same, with the added compartment for the cable. As many people mentioned, the cable is shorter and a bit thinner than the original, with smaller plugs and no pattern. It doesn't seem to be more microphonic tho - while these two changes are not a big deal, it probably allowed Sony to save a few cents.

Build...
The metal on top of the headband is gone, replaced by PU leather. This got some people unhappy regarding the build quality, but I'm getting the opposite feeling. The XM3 are better built - I get that feeling from handling it and wearing it. There's more wobbling on the older model and also a lot more frame noise while wearing it. I don't notice those little "micro-creaks and squeaks" when I move actively or bump against it. It feels more solid and quieter, despite being more "plasticky" at the same time.

So it's plastic, but sometimes you can do plastic right (just look at the HD800/HD800S). An example of a small improvement is this little detail on the hinges:

For example, you can see how the XM3 (right on the photo) has a soft rubber pad that was added to absorb vibrations/parasitic noises, something that was not present in the rigid frame of its older brothers:

AQyT8sC.jpg


It would be much better to have real leather instead of PU, but for a model like this, I don't find it as relevant as for a wired top-tier. Wireless/BT units are much less likely to have a long functional life (6+ years) before obsolescence starts being a problem.

I like that the plastic on the cups is now smooth. That might make it look even more plastic, but it makes using the touchpad a bit more natural - there's a reason touchpads on laptops do not have a grainy texture; the faux leather on previous gens was a bit too grippy, despite being better at hiding smudges and scratches. But it's there mostly for gesture control and that works better with a flat surface.

I wonder if the cups were changed internally too. Something I've noticed is that I now get good reception at a spot in my house where the 1000X would already be having some BT drops. This is strange since the M3 uses the same CSR8675 BT chipset, so perhaps changes to the board and/or cups helped a bit. Range improved, but only by a couple of meters.

Comfort...

The weight reduction is not perceptible. The few extra millimeters inside the pads help a bit however. Ear-rubbing is a bit less likely. Clamping force is a bit reduced. Sony could have done a bit more here tho, as it still does not match the Bose comfort, still, it is substantially more comfortable than the previous gens.

Passive Isolation...
Passive isolation is about the same. But I did notice that they leak considerably more tho, which isn't a good thing. This happens with a tight fit too so I suspect it might be related to lining in the cups and the considerably bigger microphone ports. This might be a drawback if you plan to use them in quiet environments - but if that is the case, you're probably using the wrong headphones anyway.

ANC...
I spent quite some time testing ANC, both with real world sounds/voices and tone generators. There is an improvement all over the chart but it is not very significant. I'd say it is perhaps 10% better. This was a bit disappointing as I had hoped for a more obvious improvement above midrange - that didn't happen. Still, I haven't heard any ANC solution that works well above 1 KHz or so - you're still going to hear those high pitched baby screams, the soprano coworkers and most of the action above the high-mids.

Overall this is the best ANC you will get of any model in the market in 2018. Is the improvement worth upgrading from the three year old 1000X? I would say no - if you need to get rid of high midrange and up, a set of IEMs with the right foam tips will still give you the best silence and probably be cheaper.

There is one aspect that improved considerably: The amount of hiss both during cancellation and pumping ambient sounds.

The 1000X has a very audible hiss, that has been greatly reduced in the M3. It's such a considerable improvement that it might justify the upgrade if hiss annoys you. When playing music, hiss was not always noticeable on the previous gens, but if you use them with no audio, only for silence or listen to material with quiet segments (e.g. audiobooks) then the hiss is hard to ignore.

Ambient sound modes also have a lot less hiss, although I've noticed Sony dialed back the amplification a bit. You will not hear as much from the outside world as you would with the 1000X, even at max setting. The amplification of the 1000X could be a bit exaggerated tho transmitting outside noises even louder than what you'd hear by removing the headphones - so this is not necessarily bad and helped contribute to the lower hiss.
Maybe the new processor and new tuning helped, along with the use of MEMS microphone tech.

Performance in windy environments is greatly improved too. Similarly to the hiss this is something you'll notice mostly during quiet passages in music or books. The microphones are much more recessed, probably helping a lot.

Overall, ANC is only slightly improved in terms of cancellation (not worth the upgrade) but greatly improved in terms of hiss/noise floor. Upgrade if you hate the hiss (and complain about wind noise) but don't upgrade if you're mostly just hoping for much better cancellation.


Audio...
The biggest improvement to my ears is the better separation and positioning. While the 1000X would provide a flatter image, the M3 gives me a more enjoyable sense of instrument separation and space, which is notorious in good recordings (for example some Chesky binaural content). It also has a treble zing that somehow is missing on my 1000X. Still rolls off early but somehow seems brighter, giving a slight sense of extra resolution. They sound a bit less veiled, less dark than the 1000X. Mid and treble detail is pretty good, but the lower mids do not benefit from the stock bass tuning.

That bass tuning is puzzling. Definitely exaggerated even when comparing to other bassy Sony products. I found very few tracks where it would be pleasant while stock (typically only music natively mastered with a very thin, bass-light sound). Listening to the Dark Knight's OST "Why so serious?" murderous sub-bass will be a headache inducing bass punch in the face.

Even removing it and immediately switching to a bassy-but-fun model like the MDR-Z1R feels as if you're putting on the HD800, given how much more clean, tight and balanced the lower frequencies are on its big cousin.

The good part is that it responds really well to EQ and it's easy to tame it by reducing some energy in the 20 Hz-250 Hz band. It's never a good sign when something doesn't sound right stock, but I see no reason to dismiss a model with clear advantages if it can EQ quite nicely - and the 1000X XM3 does. Once properly EQ'ed it becomes pretty balanced, still fun but not too far from neutral.

Sound quality is definitely good, but I still don't feel like going for it unless I need portability/wireless+ANC. It still gets destroyed by wired flagships, which isn't really a fair criticism. I recall when wireless headphones used to be simply terrible - the fact that they are now "quite enjoyable" even if not "excellent" in sound quality is already a huge improvement.

Calls...
Some people complain about call quality. I've only tested calls indoors, with moderate background noise. No issues. While recording audio in quiet environments the sound quality is actually considerably better than in the 1000X, with recordings being very clear, with good tonality and no background hiss. MEMS microphones in the M3 seem like an improvement to me.

Overall...
  • Active cancellation slightly improved. Noticeable, but not enough to justify an upgrade. I'd pick "+10%" if I had to quantify it.
  • Hiss greatly reduced both in cancellation and ambient sound modes. Very audible difference while no music/audio is playing. Much better performance under strong wind.
  • Sound quality marginally improved. Better separation/positioning and a bit more air. Sense of slightly better resolution. Fatiguing bass tuning, even more bassy than previous gens, making EQ mandatory.
  • Build quality improved, despite the more plastic-like feeling. Less prone to frame noises.
  • Usability slightly improved (App, better button layout, more adequate surface for the touch panel). Still lacks easier multi-pairing and faster startup+voice prompts.
  • Comfort slightly improved (space in side pads increased a bit)
Missed opportunities (maybe in a 4th generation if Sony agrees)...
  • IPX rating for water-resistance would have been welcome for worry-free outdoors use under rain/harsh weather, especially now that wind noise is finally not a problem. Possible even with PU leather.
  • No Qualcomm Bluetooth 5 chipset (although advantages seem unclear at this time)
  • No improvements in usability when wanting to quickly switch between different BT sources.
  • ANC is class-leading but only marginally improved from previous gen. It is unclear if the new "4x more powerful" signal processor can actually be capitalized on for improved performance in the future via firmware upgrades.
  • Sound quality/tuning could have been a bigger step-up from previous two generations. Can still sound a bit congested at low volumes. Plus TurboBassBoost.
  • Automatic Start/Stop triggered by proximity sensor in the cups would have been a nice-to-have.
  • Boot/Startup time did not improve at all with the new board/processor - still a slow starter you can't just quickly boot when a call comes in. A bit of lag in mode changes and excessively long voice prompts also needlessly give it a sense of "never in a hurry".

Short version to keep the thread subject relevant: The answer to that questiin is easy: "Yes". :)
 
Last edited:
Nov 15, 2018 at 5:39 PM Post #868 of 2,082
Is that a physical ratting (as if something loose in the cups or structural squeaks) or possible artifacts from ANC/mics going wild?
Do you get those noises even with ANC (and ambient sound mode) off and while powered off?

Don't think it is the ANC going wild as it was happening when walking around inside as well as outside. It is the same popping soound when applying light pressure to the ear cup, but now it was just happening when moving. Running the pressure equaliser each time I put them on helped a bit. This is what made me wonder if the drive was loose. I didn't try it with ANC off as ANC was the main reason for buying them.

So my 1000X M3 arrived. Thought I'd do a bit of a disorganized brain dump regarding that experience side-by-side with the original 1000X [M1]....
Calls...
Some people complain about call quality. I've only tested calls indoors, with moderate background noise. No issues. While recording audio in quiet environments the sound quality is actually considerably better than in the 1000X, with recordings being very clear, with good tonality and no background hiss. MEMS microphones in the M3 seem like an improvement to me.

I used my XM3 in a busy airport lounge and on a busy street, and the person on the other end said they could hear me fine. This wasn't the case with the XM2, so looks like they made a good improvement with calls. Nice write up btw.
 
Nov 15, 2018 at 6:45 PM Post #869 of 2,082
So my 1000X M3 arrived. Thought I'd do a bit of a disorganized brain dump regarding that experience side-by-side with the original 1000X [M1]....

Here they are...

jM1nF1j.jpg


Opening the box...:
The nice interior reusable cardboard box of the 1000X is gone. It's now shipped in a cheaper box. The case is about the same, with the added compartment for the cable. As many people mentioned, the cable is shorter and a bit thinner than the original, with smaller plugs and no pattern. It doesn't seem to be more microphonic tho - while these two changes are not a big deal, it probably allowed Sony to save a few cents.

Build...
The metal on top of the headband is gone, replaced by PU leather. This got some people unhappy regarding the build quality, but I'm getting the opposite feeling. The XM3 are better built - I get that feeling from handling it and wearing it. There's more wobbling on the older model and also a lot more frame noise while wearing it. I don't notice those little "micro-creaks and squeaks" when I move actively or bump against it. It feels more solid and quieter, despite being more "plasticky" at the same time.

So it's plastic, but sometimes you can do plastic right (just look at the HD800/HD800S). An example of a small improvement is this little detail on the hinges:

For example, you can see how the XM3 (right on the photo) has a soft rubber pad that was added to absorb vibrations/parasitic noises, something that was not present in the rigid frame of its older brothers:

AQyT8sC.jpg


It would be much better to have real leather instead of PU, but for a model like this, I don't find it as relevant as for a wired top-tier. Wireless/BT units are much less likely to have a long functional life (6+ years) before obsolescence starts being a problem.

I like that the plastic on the cups is now smooth. That might make it look even more plastic, but it makes using the touchpad a bit more natural - there's a reason touchpads on laptops do not have a grainy texture; the faux leather on previous gens was a bit too grippy, despite being better at hiding smudges and scratches. But it's there mostly for gesture control and that works better with a flat surface.

I wonder if the cups were changed internally too. Something I've noticed is that I now get good reception at a spot in my house where the 1000X would already be having some BT drops. This is strange since the M3 uses the same CSR8675 BT chipset, so perhaps changes to the board and/or cups helped a bit. Range improved, but only by a couple of meters.

Comfort...

The weight reduction is not perceptible. The few extra millimeters inside the pads help a bit however. Ear-rubbing is a bit less likely. Clamping force is a bit reduced. Sony could have done a bit more here tho, as it still does not match the Bose comfort, still, it is substantially more comfortable than the previous gens.

Passive Isolation...
Passive isolation is about the same. But I did notice that they leak considerably more tho, which isn't a good thing. This happens with a tight fit too so I suspect it might be related to lining in the cups and the considerably bigger microphone ports. This might be a drawback if you plan to use them in quiet environments - but if that is the case, you're probably using the wrong headphones anyway.

ANC...
I spent quite some time testing ANC, both with real world sounds/voices and tone generators. There is an improvement all over the chart but it is not very significant. I'd say it is perhaps 10% better. This was a bit disappointing as I had hoped for a more obvious improvement above midrange - that didn't happen. Still, I haven't heard any ANC solution that works well above 1 KHz or so - you're still going to hear those high pitched baby screams, the soprano coworkers and most of the action above the high-mids.

Overall this is the best ANC you will get of any model in the market in 2018. Is the improvement worth upgrading from the three year old 1000X? I would say no - if you need to get rid of high midrange and up, a set of IEMs with the right foam tips will still give you the best silence and probably be cheaper.

There is one aspect that improved considerably: The amount of hiss both during cancellation and pumping ambient sounds.

The 1000X has a very audible hiss, that has been greatly reduced in the M3. It's such a considerable improvement that it might justify the upgrade if hiss annoys you. When playing music, hiss was not always noticeable on the previous gens, but if you use them with no audio, only for silence or listen to material with quiet segments (e.g. audiobooks) then the hiss is hard to ignore.

Ambient sound modes also have a lot less hiss, although I've noticed Sony dialed back the amplification a bit. You will not hear as much from the outside world as you would with the 1000X, even at max setting. The amplification of the 1000X could be a bit exaggerated tho transmitting outside noises even louder than what you'd hear by removing the headphones - so this is not necessarily bad and helped contribute to the lower hiss.
Maybe the new processor and new tuning helped, along with the use of MEMS microphone tech.

Performance in windy environments is greatly improved too. Similarly to the hiss this is something you'll notice mostly during quiet passages in music or books. The microphones are much more recessed, probably helping a lot.

Overall, ANC is only slightly improved in terms of cancellation (not worth the upgrade) but greatly improved in terms of hiss/noise floor. Upgrade if you hate the hiss (and complain about wind noise) but don't upgrade if you're mostly just hoping for much better cancellation.


Audio...
The biggest improvement to my ears is the better separation and positioning. While the 1000X would provide a flatter image, the M3 gives me a more enjoyable sense of instrument separation and space, which is notorious in good recordings (for example some Chesky binaural content). It also has a treble zing that somehow is missing on my 1000X. Still rolls off early but somehow seems brighter, giving a slight sense of extra resolution. They sound a bit less veiled, less dark than the 1000X. Mid and treble detail is pretty good, but the lower mids do not benefit from the stock bass tuning.

That bass tuning is puzzling. Definitely exaggerated even when comparing to other bassy Sony products. I found very few tracks where it would be pleasant while stock (typically only music natively mastered with a very thin, bass-light sound). Listening to the Dark Knight's OST "Why so serious?" murderous sub-bass will be a headache inducing bass punch in the face.

Even removing it and immediately switching to a bassy-but-fun model like the MDR-Z1R feels as if you're putting on the HD800, given how much more clean, tight and balanced the lower frequencies are on its big cousin.

The good part is that it responds really well to EQ and it's easy to tame it by reducing some energy in the 20 Hz-250 Hz band. It's never a good sign when something doesn't sound right stock, but I see no reason to dismiss a model with clear advantages if it can EQ quite nicely - and the 1000X XM3 does. Once properly EQ'ed it becomes pretty balanced, still fun but not too far from neutral.

Sound quality is definitely good, but I still don't feel like going for it unless I need portability/wireless+ANC. It still gets destroyed by wired flagships, which isn't really a fair criticism. I recall when wireless headphones used to be simply terrible - the fact that they are now "quite enjoyable" even if not "excellent" in sound quality is already a huge improvement.

Calls...
Some people complain about call quality. I've only tested calls indoors, with moderate background noise. No issues. While recording audio in quiet environments the sound quality is actually considerably better than in the 1000X, with recordings being very clear, with good tonality and no background hiss. MEMS microphones in the M3 seem like an improvement to me.

Overall...
  • Active cancellation slightly improved. Noticeable, but not enough to justify an upgrade. I'd pick "+10%" if I had to quantify it.
  • Hiss greatly reduced both in cancellation and ambient sound modes. Very audible difference while no music/audio is playing. Much better performance under strong wind.
  • Sound quality marginally improved. Better separation/positioning and a bit more air. Sense of slightly better resolution. Fatiguing bass tuning, even more bassy than previous gens, making EQ mandatory.
  • Build quality improved, despite the more plastic-like feeling. Less prone to frame noises.
  • Usability slightly improved (App, better button layout, more adequate surface for the touch panel). Still lacks easier multi-pairing and faster startup+voice prompts.
  • Comfort slightly improved (space in side pads increased a bit)
Missed opportunities (maybe in a 4th generation if Sony agrees)...
  • IPX rating for water-resistance would have been welcome for worry-free outdoors use under rain/harsh weather, especially now that wind noise is finally not a problem. Possible even with PU leather.
  • No Qualcomm Bluetooth 5 chipset (although advantages seem unclear at this time)
  • No improvements in usability when wanting to quickly switch between different BT sources.
  • ANC is class-leading but only marginally improved from previous gen. It is unclear if the new "4x more powerful" signal processor can actually be capitalized on for improved performance in the future via firmware upgrades.
  • Sound quality/tuning could have been a bigger step-up from previous two generations. Can still sound a bit congested at low volumes. Plus TurboBassBoost.
  • Automatic Start/Stop triggered by proximity sensor in the cups would have been a nice-to-have.
  • Boot/Startup time did not improve at all with the new board/processor - still a slow starter you can't just quickly boot when a call comes in. A bit of lag in mode changes and excessively long voice prompts also needlessly give it a sense of "never in a hurry".

Short version to keep the thread subject relevant: The answer to that questiin is easy: "Yes". :)
Wow, what a detailed write-up!

I recently tested a simple QC 25, and even that was better ANC in an airplane than a custom iem. So I figure, any iem even wouldn't come close to reducing airplane noise. For mid to highs, custom or high isolation iems are bettern but for airplane noise, I didn't find it to be the case. When up in the air, I'd go with a good ANC with Bose, Sony, or the B&W PX, because the bulk of the noise is the kind ANC does a better job reducing.

I found out high frequencies are difficult to isolate even with custom iems (although better), like the high tones of the PA sounds still comes through.

Earlier on I thought custom or high isolatiom iem would be comparable to the the good ANC headphones, but it wasn't the case for airplane noise. So, ANC has it's practical application.
 
Last edited:
Nov 16, 2018 at 4:38 AM Post #870 of 2,082

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