[nc8000]

Sure.

But do people actually look at the measurements or do they just say it is so because "it sounds good to them"?

My point is that it is nearly always the latter, and absolutely NO ONE measures their setup to have that dampening factor data that you are claiming (because we know dampening factor changes depending on load connected as well).

Again why the whole IER-Z1R is such a good example, on spec it takes 100mW, then why is 250mW not adequate like many claims (100% of the Chinese says that).

I mostly don’t even read specs. Most of this interesting gear is not even for sale let alone available for demo in Denmark so I rely on impressions by people of older gear that I’m familiar with and if their impressions on that gear correlates with my impressions then I assume that I might feel similarily about new gear that I’m unable to try before buy. That’s what happened with all my Sony Signature gear

 

[Gamerlingual]

Well, it’s quite interesting that you will not disclose you preferences to volume used. I will be happy to disclose mine. Reason being is it’s one of the clues about damping factor. And yes, I get that the 3.5mm port has a sound that is less drastic which promotes the quality of style of how the music was provided. Still I’m going to guess you are low gain and 40% of volume?

Do you get my point?

Edit:
Actually you don’t own the IER-Z1R? Why are we even talking?

Volume makes a huge difference in soundstage and damping factor. I’ve noted it with the TA vs the 1Z, so I’ll see how it pays out with the 1Z mark 2 when I sample it in Japan. For me it was not preference and that is what my ears caught. Little nuances of triangles, cymbals, etc are more pronounced when the volume goes up.

 

[nc8000]

Oh crap ok. I will cancel that order ASAP. Thanks for the headsup

3.5 to rca (single ended) or 4.4 to xlr (balanced) is normally the way to go. It is the same with headphones. A balanced headphone can via an adaptor be connected to a single ended output while a single ended headphone can/should not be connected via an adaptor to a balanced output. There are exceptions and a 3.5 plug can actually in the trrs form be used for balanced and the 3.5 on the WM1 daps actually supports this though not for proper balanced but for seperate ground which gives some of the benefits of balanced. So the important thing is to know how the in- and output ports on your gear is actually wired and then get cables/adaptors that match this

 

[chinaman8]

Sure.

But do people actually look at the measurements (do they even have it?!) or do they just say it is so because "it sounds good to them therefore it is"?

My point is that it is nearly always the latter, and almost no one measures their setup to have that dampening factor data that you are claiming (because we know dampening factor changes depending on load connected as well).

Again why the whole IER-Z1R is such a good example, on spec it takes 100mW maximum, then why is 250mW not adequate like many claims (100% of the Chinese says that), that's making an objective conclusion with no data, rather instead it is based on a subjective preference.

Your line of reasoning doesn't address this point.

Fletcher Munson
You need a lot of power headroom. Bass frequencies literally need more power, every 10db=twice as loud but requires 100x more power then +20db requires 10000x more power and so on. Even moderate power requirement fro IER-Z1R benefits from 1w. Then headphone like Arya dont actually need much more headroom than IER-Z1r. 1-1.5w for Arya. Even Sony with their 250mw knows this, as @MrWalkman has indicated, deliberately limited the power to 250w, when the equipment is capable of higher to allow headroom for EQ (and variation of frequency extension) in songs.

 

[Vamp898]

I recorded this sample to show how much 250mW actually is.

The MDR-Z1R does have 64Ω, that means the maximum output of the WM1Z is 62,5mW

This here is 62,5mW on an 103db/mW headphone

 

[Vamp898]

Fletcher Munson
You need a lot of power headroom. Bass frequencies literally need more power, every 10db=twice as loud but requires 100x more power then +20db requires 10000x more power and so on. Even moderate power requirement fro IER-Z1R benefits from 1w. Then headphone like Arya dont actually need much more headroom than IER-Z1r. 1-1.5w for Arya. Even Sony with their 250mw knows this, as @MrWalkman has indicated, deliberately limited the power to 250w, when the equipment is capable of higher to allow headroom for EQ (and variation of frequency extension) in songs.

I think there is a big understanding about how Sound works.

If you listen at the exact same volume, you'll have the same amount is bass. That is how electricity works.

Example --> you listen with the WM1Z at volume 60/120 with an 16Ω headphone. That's 125mW

Now it gets interesting. If your headphones impedance is doubled at 125hz, that means playing an 125hz file is done with 62,5mW

If your amp does have 3W, and you listen at the exact same volume, that means your 3W amp outputs 125mW and if they are both flat, they will have the same bass.

If the 3W amp does play an 125hz file, it is played with 62,5mw

Otherwise your amp is broken.

Both, 250mW WM1Z and the 3W amp are playing the 125hz file with 62,5mW and so will have the exact same bass (volume)

Please explain how you benefit from the 3W

Volume control is voltage control. You increase the voltage, you increase the power.

If the impedance increases in the bass, it doesn't matter how much voltage your amp potentially has. If you're at 4V, you're at 4V

Even if your Amp can output 12V, if you get the volume to 4V, it stays there. And if the impedance increases in the bass, the volume gets lower.

If you put the WM1Z at 4V and the 48V amp at 4V, they will have the same volume in bass, mids, treble.

That is how electricity works

This is the FR of the WM1Z

You see, it's the same volume at all frequencies. As long it is loud enough, there is absolutely no need for more power. The only need for more power is more volume

 

[chewyR]

I think there is a big understanding about how Sound works.

If you listen at the exact same volume, you'll have the same amount is bass. That is how electricity works.

Example --> you listen with the WM1Z at volume 60/120 with an 16Ω headphone. That's 125mW

Now it gets interesting. If your headphones impedance is doubled at 125hz, that means playing an 125hz file is done with 62,5mW

If your amp does have 3W, and you listen at the exact same volume, that means your 3W amp outputs 125mW and if they are both flat, they will have the same bass.

If the 3W amp does play an 125hz file, it is played with 62,5mw

Otherwise your amp is broken.

Both, 250mW WM1Z and the 3W amp are playing the 125hz file with 62,5mW and so will have the exact same bass (volume)

Please explain how you benefit from the 3W

Volume control is voltage control. You increase the voltage, you increase the power.

If the impedance increases in the bass, it doesn't matter how much voltage your amp potentially has. If you're at 4V, you're at 4V

Even if your Amp can output 12V, if you get the volume to 4V, it stays there. And if the impedance increases in the bass, the volume gets lower.

If you put the WM1Z at 4V and the 48V amp at 4V, they will have the same volume in bass, mids, treble.

That is how electricity works

This is the FR of the WM1Z



You see, it's the same volume at all frequencies. As long it is loud enough, there is absolutely no need for more power. The only need for more power is more volume

This is wrong because it does not account for power delivery limitations. That is why there are differences between the capacitors found on lower and higher quality equipment. To push more powerful headphones or speakers requires a power delivery that can sustain playback across all frequencies. Without an adequate power supply it is possible to output loud high frequencies but the low end will be severely diminished.

your graph is garbage because none of the equipment Z1R included has such a flat frequency response. If you wanted a non flat FR from the DAP its as simple as activating an EQ processor. You dont measure FR at the output of the DAP you measure it in acoustic playback from the speaker.

 

[Vamp898]

This is wrong because it does not account for power delivery limitations. That is why there are differences between the capacitors found on lower and higher quality equipment. To push more powerful headphones or speakers requires a power delivery that can sustain playback across all frequencies. Without an adequate power supply it is possible to output loud high frequencies but the low end will be severely diminished.

your graph is garbage because none of the equipment Z1R included has such a flat frequency response. If you wanted a non flat FR from the DAP its as simple as activating an EQ processor. You dont measure FR at the output of the DAP you measure it in acoustic playback from the speaker.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law

Volume control is voltage control.

Same volume = same voltage
Same voltage = same volume

If the low-end will be diminished, but the voltage is the same, that means the impedance increases.

If the impedance increases, the frequency response is not flat.

The frequency response is flat (even under load), that means the impedance is flat.

If the impedance is flat, it means the volume is flat.

That means no lack of low end

If the impedance is too large, that is true. So with 600Ω headphones your statement is true.

With 64Ω like the MDR-Z1R, it makes absolutely no sense.

But if the WM1Z would have 600mW but use the same capacitors, nothing would change.

This is an capacitor impedance issue, not an Voltage issue.

That means an WM1Z with 600mW (but the same capacitors) would sound identical at the same volume. It would be just louder

 

[Bosk]

If you listen at the exact same volume, you'll have the same amount is bass. That is how electricity works.

Isn't that a bit like suggesting all amplifiers sound the same? If you feel that way you're probably in the wrong hobby.

 

[Vamp898]

Isn't that a bit like suggesting all amplifiers sound the same? If you feel that way you're probably in the wrong hobby.

No, not at all, you got me wrong.

Same volume != Same sound.

What I am saying is that we are talking about capacitor impedance.

But if you listen at the same volume, no matter how much power the amp does have, you have the same voltage.

So if the WM1Z would be capable of 800mW and nothing else would change, it would sound 100% identical at the same volume.

I was only talking about the volume, not the quality of sound or anything else

 

[Hinomotocho]

I'm sure science and technical facts could shoot down a few of my perceived audio experiences, but I tend to just go with how my ears hear it.
If you ask people they will tell you the sky is blue but a scientist will explain it's just light reflecting off the atmosphere(?) and it only appears blue, but if you ask them to paint a picture they will use blue paint for the sky.

 

[Gamerlingual]

So what are others’ impressions of the 1Z M2? Better than the 1Z?

 

[hoofman]

So what are others’ impressions of the 1Z M2? Better than the 1Z?

My early inpression is that if there in some improvement in sound to the mk 1, they are very subtle and hard to notice. One tiny thing is that I set the two different at the same volume (60, 80, 85, 90) and the volume seems different so my first task is to be able to volume match them properly first before I can come up with any meaningful comparison. The difference is not big, about 2-3 steps max for me but they are there. With that being said, the 1ZM2 straight out of the box sounds very similar to mk 1 but a tiny bit brighter and a bit less clean, I don't know why. I have to test more to see if that is because of my bias toward mk 1 or volume matching or something else. The 1AM2 sounds much brighter and less clean and that confused me a lot. I still prefer my 1ZM1 above all other 3 models.
I'm reading about how to A/B DAPs properly and will go back to store to try them again. Can somebody give me some tips on this? I still hope that I can convince myself to add the mk 2 to my collection.

 

[discord]

and a bit less clean

Can you elaborate on what you mean by less clean?

Edit: Just to give some ideas out, do you find the DAP to lack some bass control? Is the sound grainy? Background isn’t black enough?

 

[hoofman]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by less clean?

Edit: Just to give some ideas out, do you find the DAP to lack some bass control? Is the sound grainy? Background isn’t black enough?

It is more like grainy in sound rather than the black background. But the reason why I hesitate to claim that it is worse because it could very well be me. More distortion sometimes can be mistaken as more detailed and vice versa sometimes more detailed can be mistaken as more noisy. On top of this there is also the burn in disclaimer at boot by Sony themselves that should be taken into account.
I find the bass of the 1AM2 is much less than the 1Z at least in quantity which gives the impression of brighter. Admittedly I was really turned off within the first 5' trying the 1AM2 so I stopped and switched to the 1ZM2 instead. A fairer comparison is I'll spend sometimes getting used to the sound of my 1A then come back later to compare. But I tried the 1A mk 1 out of the box this morning and it didn't give me the experience like 1AM2 yesterday. The grainy sound I heard yesterday is not there. I used the same SD card content for testing.