[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari Sonically - R10 is similar to none of the headphones in the list. It is possibly a hybrid sound between HD-650 and K-1000 with the same HUGE soundstage as the CD-3000. Tonally it has no similarity whatsoever with the CD3000...they both have an awesome soundstage which is matched and bettered ONLY by the K1000.

I agree witht the soundstage part except that I do not feel the K-1000 has it better neither (sorry but the HD650 has nothing to do in that comparison)
The R-10 resembles more the CD3000 than any other headphone I had heard, it has a more bodied presentation, more full and fluid, a similar soundstage, and a much better overall sound IMO, but at ten times the cost also....they does not sound alike of course, that is why I preffer the R-10, but is the closest to it, IMO...

The HD650 was a joke that day man, if you feel it, at the same level of the R-10, you are extremely lucky man, I still need to pay the big bucks to get what I want, the HD650 will never do it for me....period...same case as HD600.....

 

[fbhifi]

Sovkiller- I didn't mean to get you all riled up!! I appreciate you taking the time to post, as you have. This is what allows threads to propagate and get good!! Also, this is not my thread, this is our thread and everyone's opinion is welcome and encouraged. I tried to make a simple point that your R10 lust MAY we unfounded due to the fact you are not intimately familiar with them.

Why is it that you seem to think I hate the R10s?? I have never, ever, said that. In fact, if it weren't for the bass anomoly we've discussed at length- which BTW most R10 fans have acknowledged here- I'd probably prefer the R10s to the 650s. The problem is---- A $4000 HEADPHONE SHOULD NOT HAVE FREQUENCY PROBLEMS IMO, IMO, IMO!!! It also shouldn't require some amp mod (Mikhail is probably putting a resistor in the signal path) to help to CORRECT or MINIMIZE this bass frequency problem- ON A $4000 HEADPHONE !!!

If you want a TRULY GREAT audio playback system- whether it's headphone or speaker based- select well balanced components of the highest quality you can afford and you will end up with a well balanced system. Once you've established that baseline- tune with tubes and power cords. The concept of using one unbalanced component to balance the opposite unbalance in another component is a DEEPLY FLAWED approach and will never give you a TRULY GREAT system. BTW, Mikhail never mentioned this "R10 SUPRA MOD" to me- probably because he understands the above concept and only performs this mod for customers who say to him- "Mikhail, my R10s don't sound quite right in the bass with the Supra." He's, reluctantly, modifying an extremely well balanced extraordinary amplifier to offset the shortcoming of the R10- for those who value flat, extended frequency response and expect same from a $4000 HEADPHONE!

(One caveat, I've not discussed this with Mikhail and if I'm wrong about his mod or enthusiasm about perfoming said mod- I stand corrected.)

 

[gsferrari]

To be completely honest - The R-10 voiced Maestro sounded brilliant with the HD-650. Apparently what works for one...works for the other as well.

Now - How do you change an amp to improve bass? As far as I can imagine - the power supply caps and the caps (buffers) between PSU and amp stage make the difference.

Too much = bloated sound
Too little = Thin sound

Most of the singlepower amps are in the "Just Right" region.

 

[fbhifi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari To be completely honest - The R-10 voiced Maestro sounded brilliant with the HD-650. Apparently what works for one...works for the other as well. Now - How do you change an amp to improve bass? As far as I can imagine - the power supply caps and the caps (buffers) between PSU and amp stage make the difference. Too much = bloated sound Too little = Thin sound Most of the singlepower amps are in the "Just Right" region.

You are not IMPROVING the amp, only changing it and, dare I say, actually slightly degrading it's "Just Right" sound.

 

[bozebuttons]

Having owned the R10s for over 2 years,I can say cult status is well deserved,as for the Bass anomily everyone refers to in this thread in my system it is a non issue,My system is in no way compensated just to cover up any so called flaws,as all my headphones benefit from my system approach.
Some may not like the R10s & think they are overpriced,I would have liked to have paid less no doubt, With that said ,the R10s draw you into the music like no other & thats worth the price of admission IMHO.
I have heard all the top phones including the O10s which I will own later on,but in no way will replace my R10s.
My current headphone inventory now consists of
the Grado PS1s Hp1s,Hp3s,RS1s,SR60s, Sr40s,AKG1000s,Stax OmegaIIs, Stax SRXmk II,Senn HE90s,Senn 650/SD combo.
I have owned the SennHe60s/HeV70,ATHw2002,HD600s,HP2s,Beyer dt990 pros,Ety4s besides all the phones I have heard at 4 meets & 4 mini-meets I have attended.
Sovkiller by the way that was a Meitner Dac6e you heard not a Levinson.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bozebuttons Sovkiller by the way that was a Meitner Dac6e you heard not a Levinson.

Sorry Bozebuttons, but you personally told me that, and literally from your mouth, I have a photographic memory while talking with more experienced people than me (a bad habit from my days in college maybe): you told me: "this is Mark Levinson stuff".....????.....not sure then what you were trying to say, but you were hooking that DAC with the SACD-1000, while you told me that, you were on your knees hooking the cables, and turned your head and looked at me, and told me that, I remember exactly, I was there like a kid with my mouth open looking at those monsters, and I assumed that you were talking about this DAC, as the other stuff were the Maestro, your Cary, and SACD1000, correct me if I'm wrong, it is maybe a ML based design? Or maybe something else I couldn't get it at that time, please I would like to clear that from my mind, what you meant then while you told me "Mark Levinson stuff"....or maybe a refined equipment in the same category or what????

I 100% agree with you, on the R-10 observations, it is a magic headphone, is the only headphone to the date that as soon as I have it on my head, I feel WOWOWOWOWOW!!!!! this is what I want to hear, and what I told you: ".....you already had the best headphone here, and please if you want to get the Qualia, and get rid of this one let me know ASAP...." Remember???? honestly the Qualia is even cheaper, and ready available, and it did not make me feel that way...I wish

I would like to add again something, and I encourage you guys to try to get more info if you like, we need more and I would like to have more, and the more we get the better, but I had found that the very sad reality shows, that any headphone to the date were desinged the right way, non of them consider the Biophonic curves (that I posted in my firts posts) that are needed for a correct "listening with headphones career" if you look at the Headroom measurements, non of them follow not even a closed curve, and in my experience all the headphones I have heard to the date need help in the very last octaves, the R-10 is not an exception but is not the worst neither, and offers a very good sound even on the low octaves, but it could be better....same as any other....

I don't know if it is a driver size issue, or what, well in fact this problem is also known in speakers, that is why the use of subwoofers, so it is not easy to achieve a complete balanced spectrum, this was why I opted for EQ on the headphones, bassboost, and EQ or whatever, to correct this problem, gerG has some experience in that matter using a digital EQ, you may find useful some of his posts regarding that, a flat amp with the actual headpohones of the market, will never give you the right sound.......that is for sure, if you find any, guys, let me know, I will be more than interested in listening it, and do some test with that system....

 

[bozebuttons]

Sovkiller,I may have mentioned the mark Levison 360s dac in referance to the perfomance Of the meitner gear as I had owned that before the Dac6e,Sorry about the confusion.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fbhifi Sovkiller- I didn't mean to get you all riled up!! I appreciate you taking the time to post, as you have. This is what allows threads to propagate and get good!! Also, this is not my thread, this is our thread and everyone's opinion is welcome and encouraged. I tried to make a simple point that your R10 lust MAY we unfounded due to the fact you are not intimately familiar with them. Why is it that you seem to think I hate the R10s?? I have never, ever, said that. In fact, if it weren't for the bass anomoly we've discussed at length- which BTW most R10 fans have acknowledged here- I'd probably prefer the R10s to the 650s. The problem is---- A $4000 HEADPHONE SHOULD NOT HAVE FREQUENCY PROBLEMS IMO, IMO, IMO!!! It also shouldn't require some amp mod (Mikhail is probably putting a resistor in the signal path) to help to CORRECT or MINIMIZE this bass frequency problem- ON A $4000 HEADPHONE !!! If you want a TRULY GREAT audio playback system- whether it's headphone or speaker based- select well balanced components of the highest quality you can afford and you will end up with a well balanced system. Once you've established that baseline- tune with tubes and power cords. The concept of using one unbalanced component to balance the opposite unbalance in another component is a DEEPLY FLAWED approach and will never give you a TRULY GREAT system. BTW, Mikhail never mentioned this "R10 SUPRA MOD" to me- probably because he understands the above concept and only performs this mod for customers who say to him- "Mikhail, my R10s don't sound quite right in the bass with the Supra." He's, reluctantly, modifying an extremely well balanced extraordinary amplifier to offset the shortcoming of the R10- for those who value flat, extended frequency response and expect same from a $4000 HEADPHONE! (One caveat, I've not discussed this with Mikhail and if I'm wrong about his mod or enthusiasm about perfoming said mod- I stand corrected.)

I completely disagree that a $4000 (list price btw, they can be had for well under $3300) should have "perfect frequency response" because, well, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "PERFECT FREQUENCY RESPONSE"! It's all about what people prefer. Like i said, the R10s were the absolute best headphones FOR ME. I'm not a bass head, not an analytical nut (though they're extremely detailed), love mids and soundstage and that magical "tone" so the R10s were my holy grail. Even Mikhail told me "if you do get the R10s, let me know." So i did, and now the Supra sounds absolutely stunning with them. He wasn't "reluctant" to make the upgrade, it's just it's not necessary if you don't own the R10s and use them specifically. And with headphones that can be amazing as they can, it's not unreasonable to build a system AROUND them.

Are they everyones? Definitely not. It's all about what's worth it for you. I have a $1500 guitar amp at home. I've tried amps that cost 3 times that much that i wouldn't pay $1000 for because MINE fits MY tastes perfectly...

So you say "does the R10s deserve it's "cult" status?".... well, "cult" status is kind of a stupid term IMHO. It just means they have this kind of mythical quality about them. Putting it in real world terms they are among the absolute best headphones in the world and when you get into that high quality of gear it all comes down to personal taste.

 

[dolifant]

I think despite what we say, or how experienced we may be, the amount of bass that pleases you depends on your expectations. I own both the R-10 and Senn 650, and listen to both. There is no doubt that the atrticulation of the notes is better and more distinct with the R-10s. I am satisfied with the bass, but I primarily listen to jazz and classical. But there is indeed bass in symphonic works as well as in jazz. When I listen to Brian Bromberg doing a solo upright bass piece(his Wood albumn) or the SACD Super Bass I or II, I hear every note well articulated,down as low as he (they) is (are) playing. I don't have "slam" but I do not need slam. That, for me, is for speakers in my home theatre setup.

If I listen on the Senn 650s, I still enjoy the music. I do hear a louder volume of bass. But the entire presentation lacks a certain degree of accuracy. Mind you its not in any way horrible, just like I am listening with a subtle barrier between the headphones and my ears. This may be the "veil" everybody talks about.

I won't try to tell you they are worth $4K (new retail cost) in comparison. It is largely a matter of priorities. I have owned a Mercedes for $90K and currently drive a Toyota Prius (~29K), and enjoy both. I have a friend who had to have a $160K Ferrari. To me his desires are a waste of money. I am someone who apprecites the clarity and accuracy of the R-10s. I am happy owning them, but I would not tell my wife what I paid.

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fbhifi In terms of slam- it was like hitting a baseball with tuna instead of a bat!! My focus was drawn away from the music by this miserable bass response.

Hmmm, so that's a *splat* compared to a *squeak*, then. Oh, and my focus would be drawn away from music as well, if I had such images in my mind, too...

Grinnings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[GlowWorm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolifant I won't try to tell you they are worth $4K (new retail cost) in comparison. It is largely a matter of priorities. I have owned a Mercedes for $90K and currently drive a Toyota Prius (~29K), and enjoy both. I have a friend who had to have a $160K Ferrari. To me his desires are a waste of money. I am someone who apprecites the clarity and accuracy of the R-10s. I am happy owning them, but I would not tell my wife what I paid.

I drive a 15K Ford Taurus, and a 3K Yamaha Virago.

I've owned a couple of expensive automobiles in the past, my last being a Jaguar XJ6, but driving a 60K car in Pittsburgh is a nerve wrecking experience to say the least considering the poor conditions of our roads, and a waste of money IMO. Especially true in the winter (ice, snow, salt, ect.). I mean we got pot-holes here that have their own zip code!

I'm actually happier driving my Taurus because I don't have to worry nearly as much about it.

The same thing with headphones. I don't think ANY headphone is actually worth 4K, but if it gives that individual alot of musical enjoyment owning the R10's, and if he or she can afford them without having to sacrifice more important things in life, I don't have a problem with it.

 

[remilard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WulfmanJax I completely disagree that a $4000 (list price btw, they can be had for well under $3300) should have "perfect frequency response" because, well, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "PERFECT FREQUENCY RESPONSE"! It's all about what people prefer.

There certainly is an accurate frequencey response and that is objective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wulfmanjax Are they everyones? Definitely not. It's all about what's worth it for you. I have a $1500 guitar amp at home. I've tried amps that cost 3 times that much that i wouldn't pay $1000 for because MINE fits MY tastes perfectly...

While I agree with you somewhat I think you might be too enthusiastic on this point. If the only determination of audio equipment quality is how satisfied one is with the performance then I must say there are about a dozen people in the computer lab with me at this time listening to ipods with stock earbuds who probably have us all beat in this game.

That being said I think it is perfectly valid to enjoy a colored piece of equipment to a neutral one, thought that typically isn't my preference. I also think it is okay to talk about which equipment is more or less neutral.

I say all of this without commenting on the R10 specifically, I have not heard it.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller and FYI I can't afford the R-10

Just out of curiosity, how much could you (would you?) spend on a pair? I have two guys i've met recently that are both pretty "connected" in the hi-fi headphone world and it's because of them that i was able to get my R10s. If you could give me a budget i could tell them to keep an eye out.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by remilard There certainly is an accurate frequencey response and that is objective. While I agree with you somewhat I think you might be too enthusiastic on this point. If the only determination of audio equipment quality is how satisfied one is with the performance then I must say there are about a dozen people in the computer lab with me at this time listening to ipods with stock earbuds who probably have us all beat in this game. That being said I think it is perfectly valid to enjoy a colored piece of equipment to a neutral one, thought that typically isn't my preference. I also think it is okay to talk about which equipment is more or less neutral. I say all of this without commenting on the R10 specifically, I have not heard it.

And see, that "accurate frequency response" thing isn't a factor for me. I'm sorry, but you're wrong on this point. It's ALL about what people enjoy. If people can be TRULY happy with a $10 Walmart player and a $20 pair of headphones, good for them. But it's all about priorities. Next to God and family, music is the most important thing in my life. Finding out about this whole "hi-fi" world was the best thing that has happened to me in years because it's like i've been listening to music all these years with two buildings between me and the music.

Now i've always been one who, when i find something that's important to me, i want to have the absolute best for what i can afford. That's why i went so nuts (some would say overboard) on my first high end system. But in the past few weeks i've torn through over half of my cd collection and it's almost as if i've never even REALLY heard most of these albums....

Now most people would hear my system and go "WOW! That sounds amazing!" But then when they found out how much it cost would say that it wasn't worth it TO THEM. To me it was worth every penny. And the same principle applies to this specific headphone discussion. If there was such a thing as "perfect frequency response" then all headphones would sound the same. There is no such thing because music presentation is SUBJECTIVE.

To make an analogy, i return to my guitar/amp hobby. As different as headphones/hp amps/systems might sound, it's NOTHING as different as guitars and amps. Compare a Fender Telecaster to a Les Paul and even someone who knew nothing about guitars could tell a night-and-day difference. The Tele is bright and thin with this shimmery twang. The Les Paul is warm and thick with this creamy, smooth sound.... Now is one "better" than the other? No. It all depends on what you prefer.

Same with headphones. I realize with headphones there's a certain "colored" v.s. "neutral" thing, and that's no doubt a big factor. But you obviously like neutral sound, and i really don't mind either, especially if i like the specific headphone's "coloring". If you want something that's completely neutral the Qualias or Omegas might be YOUR dream cans.

In closing i'll say i'm a huge part of a guitar/amp board. Much like head-fi. There's rarely arguments anymore over gear v.s. gear or whether "such and such is worth this". Why? Because most people realize it is all personal taste. Have i made that point too much? Maybe so, but this thread seems kinda silly to me. You can probably find a ton of people who love the R10s for the same reason you DISLIKE them.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WulfmanJax Just out of curiosity, how much could you (would you?) spend on a pair? I have two guys i've met recently that are both pretty "connected" in the hi-fi headphone world and it's because of them that i was able to get my R10s. If you could give me a budget i could tell them to keep an eye out.

"Connected" are they?

I'd like another pair of R10's. Tell them to make sure to not get too much blood on them when getting them.

-Ed