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SONY NWZ-A10 Series
Jan 13, 2015 at 5:23 AM Post #2,132 of 7,541
zilch0md said:
 
alphabetagaga said:
  guys sorry to repeat an earlier post. any ideas if my sennheiser HD 25-II would be a good pairing with the a17? i think the 25's are 70 Ω. i also have shure srh840 which are 44 Ω. which would be the better pairing?
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mmet said:
  this link may be useful for you : http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html 
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The problem with that calculator is that it tells us how loud a headphone can be with various amounts of power (mW) coming in, but that doesn't mean the headphone will achieve its maximum sonic quality at those power ratings.
 
For example, the Audeze LCD-2 has 70-Ohm impedance with an efficiency of 93 dB / 1 mW. The digizoid page calculates the following results for those variables:
 
633f3e2b_Digizoid_LCD-2.gif

 
http://www.digizoid.com/power.php
 
I don't doubt that this information is accurate, but if 500.66 mW into the LCD-2 is "Painful" and even 158.41 mW is "Very Loud," why does Audeze recommend a minimum of 1000 mW to drive their headphones?
 
Answer:  We shouldn't be concerned only with how loudly we can play the music with a given amp's rms output - we should also be concerned with how much headroom we will have for dynamics and how much control can be exerted on the movement of the transducer - especially in the bass region, where the mass of moving parts must be accelerated and decelerated at lower frequencies and tend to get sloppy in the absence of sufficient power.
 
I can plug my LCD-2 into an iPhone and find it to be plenty "loud."  But the bass and even the mids are muddy.
 
The LCD-2 sounds a lot better plugged into my OPPO HA-1, which can pump out nearly 10,000 times as much power as this chart's calculated 0.17 mW - which I don't doubt is all that's needed for an 85 db SPL "Safe" listening level - and my SPL meter reveals that I routinely listen at about 79 or 80 dB, so I'm not even using 0.17 mW rms from my OPPO HA-1, despite the fact that it can deliver about 1700 mW into 70-Ohms.
 
So, how much power you "need" to achieve a given SPL level is one thing, but how much power you "want" to take control of the moving parts, bringing them into total submission, is another.
 
I do like the way the digizoid calculator breaks out the voltage needed and the current needed for a given SPL level, based on headphone impedance, but for the sake of sufficient headroom, I'm a lot more comfortable with multiplying all of their resuts by a factor of 10, at least!  And not to sound arrogant, because there are people out there who have a lot more experience than I do, but I'm recommending a 10x multiplier from empirical observations - listening to many different headphones on many different amps, knowing the power ratings of those amps. These digizoid calculated values simply will not translate to "high fidelity" even when you keep your SPL levels at 80 dB.
 
Mike
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the values the website gives are ok, at least they're good for the values you wrote, LCD2 has a flat impedance response so the specs at 1khz are good enough(I didn't remember that impedance for the LCD2 but apparently they just kept changing that headphones while keeping the same name).
the 2 thing you actually need as information is indeed how loud you intend to go. knowing that you listening at 80db indeed doesn't mean that it is the max you'll ever need. nwavguy tested many musics with different kinds of dynamic and came up for himself with a maximum of 114db. I think it's a nice and very safe value(understand you most likely will never need as much). when listening to some classical pieces, you tend to turn up the volume for most calm part and then the amp will need to be able to keep up when something "explodes" for a second.
and the other information you need is what your amp can actually deliver for that load. as the values can change a lot depending on what you plug into it. for amps you always get a few values with different loads, but for DAPs we can go suck a rock.
mad.gif

 
with the iphone5 the max power I could get on the net is 32mw, but I don't know into what load :frowning2: .
for the sake of this example, let's pretend we know it's into 70ohm for the lcd2(but I really doubt it would be that high into 70ohm). then it would mean a maximum voltage of 1.5v(don't know if the phone actually goes that high in voltage?), that's 108db. if you're confident that you never listen loudly, it's probably enough for most musics when it comes to loudness, but already you see that nwavguy would want 4times the power with his 114db.
the real question is to know if the iphone can provide 21mA in this situation(that's what the headphone would like). and sadly DAPs and smartphones usually aren't the kings of current output. as the DAC gives voltage but pretty much no current, and after that DAPs usually have a very sad amp section.
 
with the A17, it's rapidly settled, the dap doesn't have enough power, some 10mw(not the right load so again we don't know) might first be limited by the 0.4v max so that's your headphone never going past 96db, but I suspect the current to fail first.
with amps it's easier to know where you stand because they will give a bunch of max output at 1% disto into different loads. with the sony and my amp,I would get 0.25v from the sony, with my +12db gain that's up to 1v(yeah! the X1 goes to 1.5v alone) so a little more than 104db as maximum loudness for the LCD2. current shouldn't be a problem(the amp says 100mw into 60ohm so well in the clear from the 13mw required buy the headphone at that loudness. yet I would not recommend that combo for the lcd2 ^_^. for me who listens very quietly it would be ok, but it wouldn't for everybody on every musics.
I really think that 114db is a very safe value to work with even for people listening pretty loudly. when your numbers are ok with 114db you have nothing to fear.
 
+3db is double the power, so when you suggest to multiply the values by 10, you're just giving yourself a headroom of about10db compared to what your spl meter tells you. that's a very sound and not exaggerated reasoning IMO. I tend to follow the values but just estimate louder than I really need, which ends up giving the same as you ^_^.
now audeze asking for 1watt is BS. they probably give that value to avoid having to explain the different situations with each amp reacting differently when plugged into 70ohm(or the more troublesome impedance differences and different needs in current from all the versions of LCD2). or they just don't want to get angry mails from people disappointed by the sound of their new LCD2 into a sansa clip. IDK the reason but 1W, that's 123db... that's not headroom, that's using the headphone as speakers ^_^.
 
frack I wrote volumes again. all that to say that estimating numbers for DAPs might not be very useful simply because we usually don't have enough measurements for DAPs. at best you can make an educated guess
 
Jan 13, 2015 at 8:11 AM Post #2,134 of 7,541
@castleofargh
 
I find your analysis, above, to be very reasonable, until we get back to Audeze' recommendation of a 1000mW minimum rms output.  My CEntrance DACmini almost, but not quite, brings out the best possible performance in my LCD-2, at around 500mW. The OPPO HA-1 finishes the job completely with 1700 mW.  A lot of highly respected Head-Fi Members have touted the benefits of running the Audeze headphones on amps that approach their maximum rated handling of 13,000 mW (13 Watts) with amps like those by Leben. And there are members using speaker amps like the Odyssey Audio Cyclops, rated at 110 Watts into 8-Ohms, which equates to 12.6 Watts into 70-Ohms, to driver the LCD-3. 
 
Perhaps you hit the nail on the head by mentioning the need for current, as opposed to the need for voltage, such that the overall power is excessive - more voltage than is needed, just to get the current that is needed, but in any case, my recommendation for multiplying the digizoid numbers by a factor of 10, at least, was conservative in my mind.
 
Doing a poor job of staying on topic, here, I'm with you completely in regards to the A17's 10mW max. specification evidencing that "it doesn't have enough power," except for the most efficient of IEMs and headphones, perhaps.
 
Thanks,
 
Mike
 
Jan 13, 2015 at 4:21 PM Post #2,137 of 7,541
spatzi said:
 
gerelmx1986 said:
is a good idea to have it on, also a good idea not to let your battery run down to 0%

I am doing this of batterycare off to charge at least three times the battery during first use to condition it for maximum potential

question @spatzi
 where you fiddling constantly with the screen, f.e looking for song info or palying arround with efefcts?
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Not really. Set it to clear bass only, and then used the screen as little as possible, playing full albums. BTW, thanks so much for not whipping me with "Guess you still didn't read the manual." before answering. Turns out, we don't really need the forum. It's all in the manual! :mask:
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To condition a new battery as i read on my vaio manual it said besure to cycle the battery 5 times (chtage to 100% let it discharge until computer turns off)
 
Battery care does the following, stops charge at 90% to PREVENT BATTERY DEGRADATION, turns out Li-ion batteries dont like either being charged to 100% AND discharged down all the way to 0% this damages abtteries, i have managed to completely trash three laptop batteries by doing this of charge to 100%, then discharge down to 0% and repeated this ... my batteries lasted just one year
 
But with my ipod classic did this of not discharging to 0% and the battery is still good (ipod dead), my VAIO battery has a battery care 50% i have that ON to aboid damagin te battery by having it always plugged and charge to 100%, I also never let my VAIO battery run to 0% (unless recalibrating), i often when i see 20% REMAINING i plug the power cord, I also never let the laptop all the day and night on the AC mains, when i am out of my ouse it is disconnected from the AC and also when i am sleeping is
disconnected
 
So for any device with Li-ion Li-polymer
 
  • never discharge down to 0%, betetr at 20 to 25% start the recharge
  • Never charge to 100%, better 75-90%
  • never leave the device charging (from USB port or AC Mains) for extended period of times, f.e going to work and leaving your lappy all day on AC mains
  • Nevrr leave your battery-powered device in a very hot place like a hot car at 40°C days
  • Don't let li-ion batteries get wet, short circuits can mean bye bye batetry or even KABOOM!!
Learn to take care of your battery and it will be pleased to serve you many years
 
Jan 13, 2015 at 4:30 PM Post #2,138 of 7,541
zilch0md said:
  @castleofargh
 
I find your analysis, above, to be very reasonable, until we get back to Audeze' recommendation of a 1000mW minimum rms output.  My CEntrance DACmini almost, but not quite, brings out the best possible performance in my LCD-2, at around 500mW. The OPPO HA-1 finishes the job completely with 1700 mW.  A lot of highly respected Head-Fi Members have touted the benefits of running the Audeze headphones on amps that approach their maximum rated handling of 13,000 mW (13 Watts) with amps like those by Leben. And there are members using speaker amps like the Odyssey Audio Cyclops, rated at 110 Watts into 8-Ohms, which equates to 12.6 Watts into 70-Ohms, to driver the LCD-3. 
 
Perhaps you hit the nail on the head by mentioning the need for current, as opposed to the need for voltage, such that the overall power is excessive - more voltage than is needed, just to get the current that is needed, but in any case, my recommendation for multiplying the digizoid numbers by a factor of 10, at least, was conservative in my mind.
 
Doing a poor job of staying on topic, here, I'm with you completely in regards to the A17's 10mW max. specification evidencing that "it doesn't have enough power," except for the most efficient of IEMs and headphones, perhaps.
 
Thanks,
 
Mike
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^_^
the thing is, the LCD is almost purely resistive, so once you know the loudness you want, you know the value of power and voltage. from there all you need is the impedance and you know for sure the max current the headphone can use. with your specs it needs to really reach 123db to use 1W. and just 120db puts it back to 500mW.
so if an amp measures less than 1%THD at 500mw into 70ohm, then I'm very sure it can drive your headphone at it's best. but we need that value into 70ohm, we can't really just make an estimation with a 32ohm max output measurement of the amp.
so as long as you are sure of your headphone's specs and the amp specs for that load, you're good. (meaning you're almost never good )
rolleyes.gif

so your guys maybe estimated their amps badly(crap manufacturer specs?), or just went for some subjective opinion unrelated to driving ability.
 
sorry for the OT guys. "A10 ya ya ya, I am lord ya ya ya"(that should cover it^_^).
 
Jan 13, 2015 at 10:42 PM Post #2,142 of 7,541
spatzi said:
Could have been written by me. Also does x5 comparison which highlights the same problems I had with it.

https://gigaom.com/2015/01/13/its-2015-and-i-just-bought-a-sony-walkman-a17/
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Same reasoning why I got rid of my x5. Its UI is very poor imo and it is too bulky and heavy for portable despite a nicer and more powerful sound quality. I sure wish that the a17 supports dsd playback.
 
Jan 14, 2015 at 12:17 AM Post #2,143 of 7,541
Hello everyone!
 
I apologize in advance if this questions has been asked/answered before!
Is there a way to create playlists on the actual unit? I went through manual but nothing sticks out.
 
Any information would be appreciated!
 
Thanks!
 
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