[gLer]

One question: why is Sony being singled out for releasing an Android DAP (not their first either, might I add)? Why aren't the pitchforks and torches out on all the other Android DAP threads too?

(Sorry, that's two questions)

 

[WAmadeusM]

I can't really make a comment about comparing the effect of Android on SQ, since I don't have access to a CN Mark II or have if there's a way to mod the M2s with a Walkman OS. I concede it would have been amazing if Sony offered a dual-boot mode.

Nonetheless I can say there is a marked difference in sound presentation between the Mark I and Mark II. To my experience, the M2 units detail retrieval and balance is a step up from the older models.

Personally, I am indifferent about big tech harvesting data. There are tons of strategies to mitigate the privacy concerns.

Out of sheet laziness since I received the 1ZM2 in May I:

1) Never bother signing up for Google
2) Always set the Walkman on airplane mode

So this essentially negates any data sharing/ harvesting concerns IMO. Also if you really need to use Wifi for apps/ streaming you can easily create a burner google account.

I will eventually use the streaming conveniences, but have made a personal choice to use the M2 as a 'dumb' DAP during the burn in period.

Interesting. Were you comparing stock W1Z OG with M2s or CFW W1Z OGs running @MrWalkman?

As I've said before here - my WM1Z was going back because of soft-focus sound retrieval until Mr Walkman spliced in some of the 1A Signature in early edition CFW. I've not even investigated later tweaks. It was enough to have more sound retrival with the 'warmth' of the internal Kimber et al....

That transformed it.

The thing with @Queen6 point - beyond data harvesting - the Sony engineers have had to put the Google part of the system inside a physical shielded cage, of sorts, to separate it signal-wise from their own WM FW pathway.

How much of R&D was put into that, to create a more 2022 Dap, and how much went into the 'gold solder' and CAPS improvements?

The WM1Z (especially), from all that I have read, was a proof of concept TOTL R&D attempt at a DAP. Money and weight upside_down no object. The 1Z M2 is that, with streaming, and tweaks to 'always be closing'.

As @MrWalkman has QED - FW is a large part of what is going on under the hood.

As I've also said, the irony that the people that can most afford these kind of DAPs are of an age where their hearing will have deteriorated naturally beyond the point of reliably quantifying improvements - is not lost on me....

 

[Damz87]

Moment. Who came up with the argument "The M2s last longer than the M1s." first? Not me.
If you want to compare apples to oranges (i.e. not taking into account the material reason why M2s play music longer), it is your choice and fight.

You’ve lost me, buddy. Not sure what point you’re trying to make with that post but it’s clear the M2 Walkmans aren’t for you lol. If you want to tweak and modify your DAP then you’re in luck, the last generation Walkman’s are perfect for that.

I on the other hand much prefer being able to access streaming services over being able to tweak/modify my DAP. The lack of streaming is why I sold my WM1Z, and I’d say there are enough DAP consumers out there that feel the same way otherwise Sony wouldn’t have bothered implementing Android.

Different strokes

 

[xjaynine]

Interesting. Were you comparing stock W1Z OG with M2s or CFW W1Z OGs running @MrWalkman?

As I've said before here - my WM1Z was going back because of soft-focus sound retrieval until Mr Walkman spliced in some of the 1A Signature in early edition CFW. I've not even investigated later tweaks. It was enough to have more sound retrival with the 'warmth' of the internal Kimber et al....

That transformed it.

The thing with @Queen6 point - beyond data harvesting - the Sony engineers have had to put the Google part of the system inside a physical shielded cage, of sorts, to separate it signal-wise from their own WM FW pathway.

How much of R&D was put into that, to create a more 2022 Dap, and how much went into the 'gold solder' and CAPS improvements?

The WM1Z (especially), from all that I have read, was a proof of concept TOTL R&D attempt at a DAP. Money and weight upside_down no object. The 1Z M2 is that, with streaming, and tweaks to 'always be closing'.

As @MrWalkman has QED - FW is a large part of what is going on under the hood.

As I've also said, the irony that the people that can most afford these kind of DAPs are of an age where their hearing will have deteriorated naturally beyond the point of reliably quantifying improvements - is not lost on me....

I've been listening with Mr Walkman CFW (Walkman One), my settings are listed in these posts:

Initial Impressions
Impressions at 40 hours

I agree with your assessment, the Mr. Walkman CFW have certainly elevated the detail retrieval of the OG units, yet retaining the smoothness of the sound. That said, the sound from the OG is still wonderful and had I not gotten an opportunity to purchase the M2 at a discount. I would have been most happy with the OG for many more years.

However I can't ignore the improvements with the M2s. Hopefully the supply issue gets resolved soon and more people get a change to demo the two.

---

Also about the M2's android circuitry being physically isolated from the audio sections on the PCB with a copper block. The engineers also worked on custom code on the software side to optimize audio too.

Mr Walkman has opened my ears to the importance of software. With the M2s just launched I am sure the experience will improve with firmware updates.

---

Also very true about the best audio equipment being only accessible to those with worse hearing. Here's hoping that the medical sciences can regenerate our hearing in the future!

 

[Bigbeat]

One question: why is Sony being singled out for releasing an Android DAP (not their first either, might I add)? Why aren't the pitchforks and torches out on all the other Android DAP threads too?

(Sorry, that's two questions)

I am not about to be anybody else's spokesman.

As far as your 1-st question and me are concerned, I do not like the way SONY has been trying to make fools of its customers.

IIRC SONY started with DAP players based on Android. I am not sure if it was Google Android or AOSP (@gerelmx1986 may specify).

Later on they came with their new lines of DAPs (WM1x M1; ZX300 and A5x) based on their own OS that is built on Linux.
SONY justified this OS change by stating - in a by me simplified way - that "this new OS and omitting functionalities like Wi-Fi that could cause deterioration of SQ altogether provide much better SQ compared to their previous DAP lines with Android".
So at that time SONY found Android bad to be an OS for a dedicated DAP and indisputably opted for the SQ.

In the following years probably based upon unsatisfying sales results and market development SONY got a panic and decided to follow instead to lead.
This time they opted for Google Android so that all users wanting to have direct streaming possibilities (i.e. without a mobile phone connected via BT or a cable to the DAP) are satisfied. Nobody can exclude either that there was some financial incentive from Google to SONY for choosing Google Android as the successor OS for M2s.

In order not to lose their face in front of its existing customers who had bought their Linux-based DAPs aimed at SQ before, SONY started developing different marketing materials and videos addressing all they had done to mitigate the real or potential disadvantages that Google Android brings with it SQ and playing time per one battery charge wise.

This way SONY turned their former argumentation and their striving for unconditional SQ first upside down. They started trying to persuade the existing customers that "the black circle is actually a white square".

One can try to turn the argumentation upside down and may even succeed now and then if one is good at and the audience is weak in this sense.
However the principles of physics and electrics can not be deceived.

Regarding your 2-nd question, Queen 6 has pointed out to that this morning. There is a difference between Google Android used now by SONY and AOSP used by e.g. A&K. Had SONY opted at least for AOSP if not sticking to their former in-house developed OS, it would have been better.

 

[xjaynine]

You do realise you're comparing the Android builds of the ZX1/2 dating from 2013-15? Perhaps their decision to switch to Walkman OS made sense then.

Android has received numerous core updates related to audio since. LDAC on most non-Sony Android devices anyone? Numerous DSEE builds have been made available to Xperia devices since the ZX1 too.

The OG 1Z Walkmans are closing in on serial number 50,000. I doubt the Walkman division were in a panic to boost sales and profitability by compromising on the WM1M2's core objectives by:

1) Jumping on the cool kids bandwagon to support streaming?

2) A kickback from Google? Yes it's scummy that Google engages in this practive: https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-eu-commission-payments-phone-makers-court_id135409. But do you seriously think the Sony business team went. You know what would be an amazing business idea? Let's develop a $4000 RRP Android DAP so we can cash on $50-$500 on kickbacks from the big G (I'm making this number up by the way)?

You're also making an assumption that AOSP is better than the custom Android build that Sony is using. Other than "trust me bro" please post evidence that can be applied to this context. Otherwise it really is just an opinion.

Mind you, I'm not giving Sony a free pass just because they said "trust me bro" too. I welcome healthy criticism and insight over any product a for profit company is trying to sell the consumer on.

 

[Queen6]

Google android solely exists for data harvesting is a very narrow take on it. If you like the Sony sound why not stay with the non-android models? Is it because the WM1M2 series actually have better SQ than your dap, but you deny it because you dislike Google? If you goto Asia, you see many people on the trains using the DAPS to game and watch YouTube - it's a lifestyle device!

Sony management decided to go with Google android to be consumer friendly. The innovation then begins with the engineers, i.e. how to implement good SQ on the Google android platform. I say they did a great job as some have said it exceeds the AK SP2000.

That's exactly what the OS does and is designed for. FWIW I've lived worked in Asia for over two decades, by far the vast majority use their smartphone and included bud's. DAPs are and remain to be a niche market. If I wanted a better "lifestyle device" I'd buy one, purchase a dongle and be done with it. A DAP I want it to excel in the reproduction of music not phoning home personal data.

I like the Sony sound a lot seriously so, my WM1A has been literally hammered. At these price points I expect Sony to do it's very best, not cheap out and jump in bed with Google. Sony is in the position of offering it customers the choice, it just doesn't want to for the sake of Googles money...

Q-6

 

[Liono]

Think I've just missed the 10% off at fromjapan offering the 1AM2 at £885:

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/en/special/order/confirm/yamada-denki:10550126/2_1/lgk-link_top_search



Stock due 1 or 1.5 months away I think

 

[djricekcn]

if you're worried about data harvesting, you shouldn't even be on the internet. I don't care how careful you are, if you're on the internet, something about you is already leaked to the public or data center, with or without VPN etc.

If you're in the USA, there's public records about you.

 

[reuben3]

That's exactly what the OS does and is designed for. FWIW I've lived worked in Asia for over two decades, by far the vast majority use their smartphone and included bud's. DAPs are and remain to be a niche market. If I wanted a better "lifestyle device" I'd buy one, purchase a dongle and be done with it. A DAP I want it to excel in the reproduction of music not phoning home personal data.

I like the Sony sound a lot seriously so, my WM1A has been literally hammered. At these price points I expect Sony to do it's very best, not cheap out and jump in bed with Google. Sony is in the position of offering it customers the choice, it just doesn't want to for the sake of Googles money...

Q-6

I just see you're really passionate about Sony, but a huge fan that's disappointed.

Are you still in Asia (Asia is still quite big), but the DAP market is huge in Hong Kong, they're extremely into cable upgrades and iems too. I've personally seen people game with them on the MTR. The DAP is evolving into an all-in-one lifestyle device, maybe as living space is extremely limited.

EDIT: I actually find HK very amusing place, their passion for portable audio is unbeatable. I've seen people connecting ground devices to their daps, or have a little mats that improve SQ for you to place your dap on, there's even a hk guy on headfi that has 8 pairs of TH900's and he rocks them out on the MTR, respect! Now I'm sure it's not the brightest of ideas (it's highly questionable), but if it's fun for them that's all it matters.

Of course the OS is designed to harvest data, but that's a cynical/incomplete world view. That's like shutting off yourself from the world, ending all conversations, saying everything in this world is about money period, nothing else.

I myself am delighted that Sony exists. It's a large corporation that I compare with Apple, Google, Samsung. Sony is neat in that it still has specialised divisions and passionate engineers across all it's division, Daps/iems/headphones, Playstation, Xperia, and Alpha etc. The mentioned companies above just don't develop specialised products like Sony do.

It's difficult to compare a large corporation to small companies that solely exist to produce daps like AK, Cayin, Shanling, Fiio, iBasso etc. Their products are really rushed, unrefined, made without too much care, is it really commendable though? I'm not so sure. I surely appreciate Sony more as a whole, they surely have made a huge mark in my life, walkman, discman, trinitron tv, floppy disc digital camera, Alpha A7 series, Playstation, Xperia pro-i (I'm using this now, thank god I can't stand iPhones).

 

[jaibautista]

The more I listen to my WM1AM2 + Meze Rai Penta, the more I'm questioning the logic of keeping my desktop setup (RME ADI-2 DAC FS -> Tom Christiansen Audio HPA-1 -> Sennheiser HD800). Sure, the desktop setup will obviously sound better but I'm getting more or less the same listening enjoyment with the DAP + IEM combo and I can easily bring it with me (when I'm out and about). Most probably the RME DAC will stay (simply because it's also hooked to my Adam Audio T5Vs that's on my desk), as well as the HPA-1 (because it's an engineering marvel for the price). Maybe the HD800 will stay as well (because it's pretty difficult to source one nowadays), but in the event I need funds it certainly will go first.

I can't praise enough the WM1AM2. Among the various Sony audio-related stuff I've owned through the years, this is easily the best.

 

[psikey]

One question: why is Sony being singled out for releasing an Android DAP (not their first either, might I add)? Why aren't the pitchforks and torches out on all the other Android DAP threads too?

(Sorry, that's two questions)

If they are, then one thing that others like iBasso/Hiby/Fiio do right is bypass Android audio limitations for all apps being bit-perfect. In case of my Hiby (R5G2) battery life and standby time is a monster! They also trim out all the parts of Android you don't need rather than leaving to end-user to disable all the junk.

And biggest thing of all... They don't volume cripple the EU versions with no way of bypassing as per Sony

 

[KevP]

My WM1AM2 arrived yesterday (the only one Sony had in the UK). I just happened to go one to their website at the right moment.

After 24 hours I'm clearly not offering a comprehensive review, but I have some initial observations.

It's a lovely thing to behold (and hold!). Feels quality all the way. All the buttons have a good solid feel to them. It feels substantial, but not too heavy like the Hiby R8. Having buttons for volume is better for me, based on the issues I've had with the volume knobs of the R8 and the iBasso DX300.

It's early days, of course, but that's where the positives end at present. Although there is an initial firmware update, which I have downloaded, oh my, have Sony got some work to do! It feels like bad beta software. Laggy. Crashes often. Processor can't seem to handle Android 11. The R8 and DX300 are much more responsive and stable - and I think they're both Android 8.

I have tried downloading offline content on Tidal. Just keeps crashing. No such issues with the R8 and DX300, with the same version of Tidal.

Now, the volume. I do agree with someone on this thread who said stop whinging about the volume. You know what to expect, so don't buy it. However, I had kind of convinced myself that surely it wasn't as bad as people were saying. Well, it is. I tried using my Focal Stellias, which are reasonably efficient for headphones. Full volume is really low. And I mean "really" low. I was stunned. Better with EE ESRs of course. I have to decide whether to keep it and just assume I'll need to plug in my Cayin C9 to beef it up, or move it on.

 

[Bigbeat]

Are you about to post a review on the SONY UK website?
They should get a feedback on their products so that they can fix at least what can hopefully be fixed (e.g. the inclination to lags and frequent crashes).

 

[KevP]

Are you about to post a review on the SONY UK website?
They should get a feedback on their products so that they can fix at least what can hopefully be fixed (e.g. the inclination to lags and frequent crashes).

Yes, I will.