[ssportclay]

I like the SA5000 better than the DT880,DT860,SR225.mainly because they allow you to hear more detail but I am not completely happy with any of them.All of these headphones lack detail and sound unrealistic to one degree or another.

 

[Covenant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay I like the SA5000 better than the DT880,DT860,SR225.mainly because they allow you to hear more detail but I am not completely happy with any of them.All of these headphones lack detail and sound unrealistic to one degree or another.

Time for you to buy an R10

 

[acs236]

It really depends on your own ears. To me, the 650 is anything but natural. The treble just isn't right to my ears. The SA5000 sound a bit more natural in this regard, but there is somethig a bit unnatural about the speed of the SA5000. The bass is so tight, it sounds a bit unnatural to me. Still, I like the SA5000 a lot.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covenant Time for you to buy an R10

Not enough detail and not enough bass.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillysalsa They just did not sound natural or realistic to me. After a month with them and over 100 hrs of burn-in, I went back to the HD600's, played my favourite tracks and it felt like coming home from a long trip to a foreign country - in a very good vibe. Then played a test CD with pink noise, my favourite and most reliable way of determining the neutrality of a component. Listened with the 5K's... then the HD600 and said to myself "now that is what those are supposed to sound like". Sold the SA5k's the next week, even though I really enjoyed them for electronica - for which they were outstanding, because there is no 'natural' or 'correct' sound of sounds artificially generated on computer.

I had very similar impressions, and the pink-noise test was the final revelation. While the SA5000's «technical» merits such as clarity, resolution and airiness are quite obvious, Sony has completely screwed up its frequency response (at least to my ears). Pink noise sounds heavily colored and unnatural -- given that it should sound like a waterfall, which it really does with my HD 650 --, and the same applies to classical music in general, particularly orchestral music. While electronica naturally suffer the least. GerG's frequency graph reflects my listening impression quite well. Roughly spoken, there's something like three inclined planes attached to eachother at 280 and 2000 Hz, the worst coloration being the elevated upper-mids/lower-treble range from 2 to 3.5 or 5 kHz.

There's also a reverberative component, originating from bare surfaces around the driver/inside the earpads, especially the rear surface resulting from the angled-driver concept, which astonishingly has been left competely bare and reflective.

.

Lining just this surface with a piece of velvet or the like reduces the reverberativeness considerably -- but the higher accuracy gained by this measure unmasks the colorations even a bit more.
.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean-xenos Yes, and the Grado RA-1 is Stereoplays reference headphone amplifier and next was the Creek OBH 21 SE given a "Highlight" predicate. No matter what you think about the quality of the Grado and the Creek, they are by no means the highlights of headphone amp invention, really no way. So much to the expertise of Stereoplay on headphones.

It's true that «Stereoplay» doesn't have much experience and expertise with headphones, let alone headphone amps. So I take their ratings and comments with a grain of salt...


Quote:

So coming back to these frequency graphs of Stereoplay, what are they actually worth? Compare them to the graphs of headroom.com or other publications.

...on the other hand, my listening impressions happen to correspond astonishingly well with the «Stereoplay» graphs, much more so than with HeadRoom's graphs...


Quote:

My own experiences tell me that the HD650 does not have a flat frequency response.

...so to me the HD 650 sounds more neutral than any other headphone I've auditioned. That doesn't mean there's nothing to be criticized though, but after all pink noise sounds really «natural» and uncolored through it, so on my ears obviously there are no severe peaks and dips.

 

[Veto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ . Lining just this surface with a piece of velvet or the like reduces the reverberativeness considerably -- but the higher accuracy gained by this measure unmasks the colorations even a bit more.

I've seen this mod before (you posted it before).
What I don't get is the following. The surface you cover with velvet, with my ears (I should say I've got quit a big set

) that surface is covered by the back of my ears. Maybe that's the reason I don't hear the reverberativeness, one more argument that there is more ot phones then freq-curves.
As said above, everyone's got his own set of ears, not unimportant.

Veto

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veto What I don't get is the following. The surface you cover with velvet, with my ears (I should say I've got quit a big set ) that surface is covered by the back of my ears.

I would think that's also the case with my ears, at least partly. But you forget stray sound waves: There are multiple reflections in such a hollow space, correspondingly even «shielded» areas will contribute to them.

 

[Andrea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean-xenos My own experiences tell me that the HD650 does not have a flat frequency response.

In any event, my own ears tell me it is flat, like the (Stereoplay) graph lets you expect. No odd/unpleasant/distracting phenomena going in on any spot of the spectrum -- the response feels entirely under control, hence the natural timbre throughout. That's not necessarily denying that the HD650 has a certain 'character' in its sound as a whole (something that our brain will quite easily 'compensate for') -- it's a matter of different "levels of accuracy" I think.

It really seems difficult (today) to achieve from a headphone an "accuracy" that involves/fulfills both "levels", the immediate and the in-depth. Given that, the in-depth is definitely the one to be favored IMO as it's the decisive one for enjoying a lengthy listen and particularly the more 'fastidious' music like is the 'acoustic' type.

 

[txa]

The SA5K is a very clean, detailed, and fun phone. Lots of space between the notes, bass impact, and clarity. However, I'd have to agree with others that have posted that something is wrong with it's frequency response. This error in response is made blatently obvious when listenting to vocals, acoustic guitar, and piano. Attack and decay are all there, but lower midrange weight is missing - making these instruments sound thin and artificial. Should Sony be able to even out the frequency response to give weight to these instruments as well as tone down the treble a tad, they will have one hell of an offering. Even though I sold them, I did enjoy the strengths while I had them.

The HD650 is just about the anti-SA5K (with the exception of being clean - both are very competent here.) Piano, vocals, and acoustic guitar are to die for. They are definitely on the 'warm' side of neutral however, and in terms of frequency response alone, IMO, the HD595 does a better job. Problem with the HD595 is that it's not as refined and doesn't provide that absolute clarity, attack and decay as the 650. So depending on what shortcoming you feel is the greater error, you will prefer one over the other. I chose the 650 - but wish it to have less warmth, more in the spirit of the HD595.

Like many on this forum, I went nuts for a while. I think I'm content until the next round of offerings.

-----------------------------
Bought HD595, HD650, K501, DT880, SA5K.
Kept HD650 (warm, intimate, still neutral), DT880 (open, intimate, still neutral)

 

[chrisfromalbany]

Quote:

Originally Posted by txa The SA5K is a very clean, detailed, and fun phone. Lots of space between the notes, bass impact, and clarity. However, I'd have to agree with others that have posted that something is wrong with it's frequency response. This error in response is made blatently obvious when listenting to vocals, acoustic guitar, and piano. Attack and decay are all there, but lower midrange weight is missing - making these instruments sound thin and artificial. Should Sony be able to even out the frequency response to give weight to these instruments as well as tone down the treble a tad, they will have one hell of an offering. Even though I sold them, I did enjoy the strengths while I had them. The HD650 is just about the anti-SA5K (with the exception of being clean - both are very competent here.) Piano, vocals, and acoustic guitar are to die for. They are definitely on the 'warm' side of neutral however, and in terms of frequency response alone, IMO, the HD595 does a better job. Problem with the HD595 is that it's not as refined and doesn't provide that absolute clarity, attack and decay as the 650. So depending on what shortcoming you feel is the greater error, you will prefer one over the other. I chose the 650 - but wish it to have less warmth, more in the spirit of the HD595. Like many on this forum, I went nuts for a while. I think I'm content until the next round of offerings. ----------------------------- Bought HD595, HD650, K501, DT880, SA5K. Kept HD650 (warm, intimate, still neutral), DT880 (open, intimate, still neutral)

So txa, what is your take on the difference between DT 880 and the SA5000. The 5000's have more details, I am guessing and maybe alittle more low end bass response. The DT880 sound stage is alittle bigger. And decay of the notes isn't as quick.

 

[txa]

chrisfromalbany,

Yes - your comments are correct. The SA5K is cleaner and has a tighter, more impactful bass. Of all the phones I've owned, however, the air and detail of the DT880 comes closest to the SA5K - which is one of the reasons I like them so much. Bill Ward put out an excellent comparison whereby I believe he stated "The SA5K demands attention, whereas the DT880 invites it." Regarding the detail, that statement is spot-on. Psychologically, the DT880 is a much more relaxing phone - but yet, still provides the details.

The other thing about the DT880 is that it's mids are much more full than the SA5K - and does the acoustic stuff justice. In absolute terms, it's mids are not as nice as the HD650, but, when taken with the rest of the presentation, are very natural and listenable.

Another thing you noted is the soundstage. It is true that the DT880 has a wider soundstage than the SA5K.

In summary then,
The DT880 is not as clean or impactful, but is more listenable, has better mids and a wider soundstage. For me, a great compliment to the HD650.

 

[gsferrari]

What is all this debate about anyway? Pointless...

I took a risk with the SA5000 but it proved to be a reward in the end...enough to make me sell the HD-650 and adopt the Sony house sound. In retrospect the differences pale into insignificance when I think about how much I liked the HD-650. I like the SA5000s just as much...

Wouldnt make a difference to me if someone stole into my house, swapped my SA5000s with HD-650s...

Wouldnt make a difference if they came back the next night and re-swapped them...

I find that when it comes to headphones that fall under the "I Like!!" category - I really dont care anymore about which one is better...worse...because the feelings change on a day to day basis. There are days when I absolutely CANNOT listen to the SA5000s....even the PortaPro 2 by Koss sounds better...on other days I want to throw the PP2s at the next stupid driver I see cutting into my lane.

Audio is a fickle thing...dont take it too seriously or it will OWN you...things like room temperature, your mental state (mood), visual stimulation, nutrition, body water levels etc. affect your opinion of your gear.

I havent been posting too much these days because I am busy experimenting with the psychological variables and physical variables OUTSIDE the music equipment that affect the way Gear sounds.


Seriously...dont take music and audio gear too seriously. I conclude by saying that the reason why people LOVE the R10 is because:

A) it looks good
B) it sounds good
C) it is expensive

just an example...

 

[chrisfromalbany]

It comes down to what you like. As for the SA5000s there are times that the lack of bass, on the delay is troublesome. But at the same point, I can put the headphones on, turn on a pretty complicated track, turn off all the lights, and go swimming in the sound. With the SA5000s there are more things to swim to. Background voices I didn't hear cleanly. A solo artist vocals being layered to bring up the strength in the chorus. Or just an intense drum pattern in a Tool song I couldn't give out. An extra sample in an Depeche Mode track.

Interesting enough, after finding these new elements in songs with the SA5000s, I can pick many of them up with the other headphones. Just the SA5000s shows them to be. Slightly like watching high def. TV, then normal TV.

Now I am not going to say that SA5000 present the music correctly. Maybe they don't. (Though if they don't it still not too far off from when engineer or producer intended it to be) But who cares. Some of my favor songs have taken on new wrinkles. To me this is priceless.

 

[magnum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfromalbany It comes down to what you like. As for the SA5000s there are times that the lack of bass, on the delay is troublesome. But at the same point, I can put the headphones on, turn on a pretty complicated track, turn off all the lights, and go swimming in the sound. With the SA5000s there are more things to swim to. Background voices I didn't hear cleanly. A solo artist vocals being layered to bring up the strength in the chorus. Or just an intense drum pattern in a Tool song I couldn't give out. An extra sample in an Depeche Mode track. Interesting enough, after finding these new elements in songs with the SA5000s, I can pick many of them up with the other headphones. Just the SA5000s shows them to be. Slightly like watching high def. TV, then normal TV. Now I am not going to say that SA5000 present the music correctly. Maybe they don't. (Though if they don't it still not too far off from when engineer or producer intended it to be) But who cares. Some of my favor songs have taken on new wrinkles. To me this is priceless.

Thanks for your input! The layered stage, wealth of detail and high rez will definitely have me! Now if PS-Audio will release the head-Amp.