[maverickronin]

Quote:

Usually, I side with the consumer on these types of issues.  Especially where cables and other such goods that lend themselves to specious claims.  But I'm finding it hard to get too worked up on the behalf of those purchasers of the 87%-93% silver cables.  With cables, you're already making a kind of leap of faith aren't you?  I'll answer that.  Yes, you are.  And to those people who have purchased the "not-up-to-spec" cable, what are your real damages?  You certainly can't hear any difference (to claim otherwise strains all boundaries of reason).  It turns green.  So what?  If I were the vendors in this situation (which of course I am not), then I would offer, at most, to refund a percentage of the purchase price that represents the percentage off of 99.whatever% these were supposed to be.  I don't know enough about their businesses to know if that is even a plausible solution.  Maybe replacing is actually easier than having that cash go out the door.  But some "recall" and replacement program seems like a bad solution to a relatively minor problem.

It may just be jewelry but you still deserve what you pay for.  Its like buying a diamond ring and discovering its actually CZ.  It still severs the same purpose just as well but its not what you paid for and it doesn't have the resale value it should.

 

[TekeRugburn]

I think the difference between the advertised specs and the actual measured specs are immaterial here. Further, while the "you should get what you paid for" argument has some validity, it kind of falls apart when it appears that no one did this knowingly (yet). I'd be interested if someone could actually articulate the specific harm they suffered as a result of the "tainted" batch.


Edit: if I were the vendors, I would also explore the possibility of offering a discount on the next purchase instead of recall/replacement. Would they lose some customers? Maybe. But it would be far less costly and disruptive and I'm sure most HFers would get over it pretty quickly. There are other vendors out there who have done and/or continue to do much worse.

the harm would be not getting what you paid for. while i believe no one tried to scam anyone..... replacing the cables is the way to go. so now mistakes or errors shouldnt be corrected as long as the manufacturer didnt do it on purpose?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Well, 99.999% silver has a much higher value per weight than 87% silver plated copper, so that's a fairly significant harm.  Beyond that, it's all in the ear of the beholder.  Whether any given customer is satisfied is up to that customer.  I'd think any harm to the various businesses flows up hill until you hit the person who knowingly supplied something other than what was advertised.

I agree with this assessment.  And you've actually hit on the more important issue, which is that nothing so far (to my knowledge) has been shown to be 99.999 or however many decimal places was advertised.  Why are people not more upset about that.  At what point does this become a material issue?  I submit no one has a good answer to that.  My guess is that if other mfrs. cables were tested, they would show similar results. 
 


Quote:

It may just be jewelry but you still deserve what you pay for.  Its like buying a diamond ring and discovering its actually CZ.  It still severs the same purpose just as well but its not what you paid for and it doesn't have the resale value it should.

I disagree.  It's like buying a diamond ring and discovering it's only 90% diamond.  Not quite the same.  Or to bring it closer to home, this issue seems more like the HF-2 "Head-F1" error.  That did not result in a recall, iirc, but I forget how Todd and Grado actually handled it.  Anyone remember?
 
Also, how do you measure the resale value it "should" have?  Regardless, the difference between what it purportedly "should" be worth on a fickle second-hand market and what it actually will fetch now is not 100%.  Someone will buy these things.  If you can offer some logical estimate as to what the difference is, it could be an interesting starting point for assessing the actual damages, if any, to original purchasers.  Some are FS already, right?
 


Quote:

Quote:

I think the difference between the advertised specs and the actual measured specs are immaterial here. Further, while the "you should get what you paid for" argument has some validity, it kind of falls apart when it appears that no one did this knowingly (yet). I'd be interested if someone could actually articulate the specific harm they suffered as a result of the "tainted" batch.


Edit: if I were the vendors, I would also explore the possibility of offering a discount on the next purchase instead of recall/replacement. Would they lose some customers? Maybe. But it would be far less costly and disruptive and I'm sure most HFers would get over it pretty quickly. There are other vendors out there who have done and/or continue to do much worse.

the harm would be not getting what you paid for. while i believe no one tried to scam anyone..... replacing the cables is the way to go. so now mistakes or errors shouldnt be corrected as long as the manufacturer didnt do it on purpose?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

If replacing the cables will potentially put one or both of these vendors out of business, or even on the brink, then it is not the way to go.  Mistakes and errors should be corrected as much as reasonably possible and commensurate with the actual harm caused by such mistakes and errors, especially when small businesses are involved.
 
On a more general note, I hope that this situation does something to temper the frothing at the mouth that accompanies some of the products offered in this hobby.  Less group think and a more skeptical approach to purchasing and especially reading reviews would benefit everyone in this community.
 

 

[Carlosfandango]

Craig has made his position clear. I have accepted his offer.

The issue has been resolved so I see no further need (for me) to contribute to the thread.

 

[caracara08]

yes i agree, the supplier screwed them, but really... before this happened how many ppl really thought the sound wasnt "TWag"?  of course im not sure but i dont think there were ppl complaining about the sound not sounding how it should.  i only have v2 but everyone seemed to love the v1... wonder why that is.
 
and comparinmg what is happening to getting a CZ instead of a diamond is a bit much...  if i had a v1 and never thought twice about the sound, i wouldnt exchange it.  if it sounds how it suppose ot, and its not green... whats the big deal? youre buying the cable for the sound, or are we? now if it was green, i would exchange it to be fair.
 
in any case, the damage is irreparable and i fear that whiplash will not survive this.  his niche market is just too small, even tho the sound of his product throughout this has never been questioned, meaning it still sounds great, no one is giving him business.  that is wrong especially the way he is trying to make things right. 
 
we have to consider this small business here.  for the whole time ive been a member, hes been nothing but the best.  i assume it was always the case as hes praised so highly here.  dont be so fickle and just stop using him because of this. his product sounds good. thats what matters.  i for one, will continue to use him as much as i can and hope his great company can make it out of this alive.
 
EDIT: AND PLEASE PARROTS AND OTHERS BASHING, DONT RESPOND.  WE KNOW YOUR ARGUMENT ALREADY.

 

[563]

I think Craig will survive - I don't know of many (or any?) vendors in this business who would have bent over backward so much and demonstrated as much heart as he has to make good on something that could have happened to anyone else.  This should actually, in the long run, enhance his reputation rather than harm him, and hopefully keep him in business for many moons to come.   
 
 

 

[SolidSnake3]

I agree in that I think that the tests showing that none of the cables were even 99.9 much less 99.99999whatever is quite significant. This seems to be indicating that there is more than just a single "tainted" spool of wire in that no cable has show to be what it was claimed. Now the v1 being quite a bit less (high 80%'s) as opposed to the v2 being 99.6% shows that there for sure was something up with that particular cable/spool of wire however the test results still stand regarding the lesser than claimed purity of v2. I wondering, if for non other than my own personal curiosity, whether this point will ever be explained by whiplash/anyone else?
Quote:

I agree with this assessment.  And you've actually hit on the more important issue, which is that nothing so far (to my knowledge) has been shown to be 99.999 or however many decimal places was advertised.  Why are people not more upset about that.  At what point does this become a material issue?  I submit no one has a good answer to that.  My guess is that if other mfrs. cables were tested, they would show similar results. 
 

 

[caracara08]

Quote:

I think Craig will survive - I don't know of many (or any?) vendors in this business who would have bent over backward so much and demonstrated as much heart as he has to make good on something that could have happened to anyone else.  This should actually, in the long run, enhance his reputation rather than harm him, and hopefully keep him in business for many moons to come.   
 
 

i hope this is true.  i would also hope this for any vendor that specializes in our market knowing how small it really is.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I disagree.  It's like buying a diamond ring and discovering it's only 90% diamond.  Not quite the same.  Or to bring it closer to home, this issue seems more like the HF-2 "Head-F1" error.  That did not result in a recall, iirc, but I forget how Todd and Grado actually handled it.  Anyone remember?
 
Also, how do you measure the resale value it "should" have?  Regardless, the difference between what it purportedly "should" be worth on a fickle second-hand market and what it actually will fetch now is not 100%.  Someone will buy these things.  If you can offer some logical estimate as to what the difference is, it could be an interesting starting point for assessing the actual damages, if any, to original purchasers.  Some are FS already, right?
 

 
It doesn't matter how useful or useless it is.  The resale value doesn't even matter that much, although you could determine determine differences by comparing prices before and after.  What matters is that people didn't get what they paid for.  They didn't get what was advertised.  It doesn't matter if its functionally identical (which it isn't, since the copper will turn it green).  It doesn't matter if people were under the impression they were ordering 100% dog crap and ended up with 85% dog crap and 15% cat crap.  They still deserve a refund or a replacement.
 
They ordered one thing and received another.  That's all there is to it.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

 
 
They ordered one thing and received another.  That's all there is to it.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
 

 

[amo973]

Did Craig and Lee know of the V1 flaw? thus promoting the V2 as having a wider sound stage....and superior fidelity ect.  I guess Craig and Lee will be the only ones that know the true answer to that.  But fact of the matter, the inquisition led by this forum could destroy them.  Is there a difference in sound between V1 and V2 as suggested by Craig?
 
What is the right thing for Craig to do, and what is the right thing that I should do as a customer who had previously purchased the V1.  Given that most of the transactions where done by via credit card or paypal, should Craig be contacting all V1 customers and offering a replacement.
 
I have examined my cables and yes if I look closely, there are green specs peppered on the cable.  I do like the sound of my cables, and I did purchase them primarily because i had purchased a RSA protector and bought the twag because the feedback on the forum said that they paired up well - ironic that, the same forum that made them is now breaking them.
 
If everyone that purchased a V1 cable demands that Craig replace their cable...I am sure that such would have the effect of pushing Craig's business into the red.  
 
what do other V1 customers intend to do?  I am undecided at the moment...maybe Craig could offer us V1 owners an attractive discount on a V2 purchase, instead of paying postage fees sending back our V1s.  This way, we can still support his business out of turmoil.
 
 
 
 

 

[caracara08]

Quote:

 
If everyone that purchased a V1 cable demands that Craig replace their cable...I am sure that such would have the effect of pushing Craig's business into the red.  
 
what do other V1 customers intend to do?  I am undecided at the moment...maybe Craig could offer us V1 owners an attractive discount on a V2 purchase, instead of paying postage fees sending back our V1s.  This way, we can still support his business out of turmoil.
 
 
 
 

i think this is a great idea... but we all know the same ppl are gonna say this is outrage and that they should get everything free.  no regard for a mans company who happened to be the retailer for a product that, still sounds as great as it should, but wasnt up to the right purity.  if it sounds great, i can care less. im not going to melt it down and make a wedding band and see the impurities.  

 

[jpelg]

Assumption: No one in the chain of manufacturing->retail sales knew anything about the impure cable.
 
Statement: Whiplash should pass all expenses related to the V1 recall/replacement program to Cryo-Parts. Cryo-Parts should, in turn, pass all related expenses to its wire manufacturer. If the final customer is at the top of the heap, stuff should run downhill to the source. Craig should not bear the brunt of this alone.

 

[amo973]

Quote:

Assumption: No one in the chain of manufacturing->retail sales knew anything about the impure cable.
 
Statement: Whiplash should pass all expenses related to the V1 recall/replacement program to Cryo-Parts. Cryo-Parts should, in turn, pass all related expenses to its wire manufacturer. If the final customer is at the top of the heap, stuff should run downhill to the source. Craig should not bear the brunt of this alone.

That's assuming that the wire manufacturer will act honorably, if the company is located in the US, there is hope.  Most likely the wire manufacturing is sourced in China and if such is the case, there is little recourse for Cryo-Parts and Whiplash if the wire manufacturer defaults in such instance.
 

 
 

 

[zaimlerx]

sorry if I have post this before but want to make sure is this the Twag V1 that Craig said he will replace with New Twag V2?
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/458447/twag-stranded-up-occ-silver-wire-whoa
 
Thanks,