[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you determine it is transferred perfectly

One way is to play 5:1 DTS audio. It won't resolve if there are any significant errors. I have a regular old optical cable on my Macbook connected to my A/V rig, and I have never had it drop out. Once it locks in, it's perfect.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again I have to say that I have no way of knowing if bit errors are in fact audible. But why take a chance?

That is what audio salesmen love to hear. Fear of the unknown is one of the most effective selling tools. An informed buyer makes informed decisions, and it isn't easy to upsell him. A buyer who is afraid of things he really doesn't know will overbuy "just to be on the safe side" again and again. Defining real world problems is a better way of getting great sound than randomly chasing down theory.

See ya
Steve

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is what audio salesmen love to hear. Fear of the unknown is one of the most effective selling tools. An informed buyer makes informed decisions, and it isn't easy to upsell him. A buyer who is afraid of things he really doesn't know will overbuy "just to be on the safe side" again and again. Defining real world problems is a better way of getting great sound than randomly chasing down theory. See ya Steve

So this is all about how not to be duped by a salesman?

Arguments aside, you're creating a correlation between one power situation and one type of knowledge. That's a pretty big leap... Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with listening to music.

Where do you buy your audio gear, Steve?

 

[dvessel]

Nicely put bigshot. Wish I had something to add. All of the over the top attempts at measurbating and theorizing is nauseating.

I'll be looking forward to the discussions that affect perceivable differences.

 

[wavoman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvessel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nicely put bigshot. I'll be looking forward to the discussions that affect perceivable differences.

Yea, but when we say we hear a difference -- an improvement -- when we switch cables in our own systems, we are told "placebo effect", or "delusuion".

So we look to see if any theory backs this up. And it does for USB cables. Moreover not just theory -- the certification body usb.org seems to indicate that these crap USB cables exist.

No salesman pressured me. Spending $12 for a USB cable instead of $3 -- once in a lifetime -- makes perfect sense given the research I have done.

Use whatever you want, and hope there is (a) either no bit loss, or (b) the bit loss is inaudible. You might very well be right. But I will spend less than price of three Starbucks Venti Lattes to guarantee no bit loss.

The logic behind my decision seems pefect, and nothing posted since attacks that logic. I did not spend the extra nine bucks out of fear, despite what bigshot said. I thought it through carefully, as all my posts prove, actually spending more time on it that the trivial money spread deserves, because I was interested.

It's "risk/return" analysis, not fear. Once I know that a USB cable in the real-world can drop bits, the decision makes itself at this level of spend.

I hope everyone is having a great holiday weekend!

 

[WindowsX]

Minerva Technical Background

Hope this helps.

 

[royalcrown]

Don't worry, it didn't - it didn't really clear up anything, all it did was talk about how awesome Firewire is and how Minerva reduces jitter - it didn't discuss audibility or impact of jitter at all.

 

[badmonkey]

Mojo: I believe the below quote from Maniac illustrates something of a miscommunication between you.

Could you go back to the beginning, and outline your test proc with glass/plastic optical, and how you measured the bit perfect reproduction?
List equipment inc hardware & software and instructions to reproduce results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you determine it is transferred perfectly? I have AB tested optical, 3 types of coax and AES/EBU cable at the same time, and I have determined that they do matter. The difference is rather interesting as well.

*

Edit: rather than wait, this is what Mojo originally posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo I compared an expensive glass cable to the cheapest plastic one I could find. I played back some music on one PC and recorded it on another, linked with the optical cables. In both cases, three hours of music was transferred bit-perfectly, with zero loss or errors.

I believe that Maniac's point is that this test does not speak to DACs, because there is no DAC present in such a transfer - you are remaining entirely in the digital domain, and while it is trivial to show a digital cable is either working or not, it doesn't speak to how timing might be affected by what a DAC needs to do that the receiving SPDIF chip doesn't.

I'm not sure if you both are already on that page, but just trying to clarify things.

I'm also not concluding one way or the other, but I would say that surely even with a DAC present it should be quite easy to measure and present any difference between crap/decent optical/coax? Maniac?

 

[mojo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you determine it is transferred perfectly? I have AB tested optical, 3 types of coax and AES/EBU cable at the same time, and I have determined that they do matter. The difference is rather interesting as well.

I compared what was sent to what was received. It was bit-for-bit the same.

 

[mojo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by badmonkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe that Maniac's point is that this test does not speak to DACs, because there is no DAC present in such a transfer - you are remaining entirely in the digital domain, and while it is trivial to show a digital cable is either working or not, it doesn't speak to how timing might be affected by what a DAC needs to do that the receiving SPDIF chip doesn't.

Okay, well let's just look at the DAC side of things then. The receiving computer is actually re-clocking the signal, in the same way a DAC would. The only difference between the PC and DAC is that the DAC does a conversion to analogue, but since both are re-clocking and I proved that even with a cheap sound card the re-clocking was no affected at all by input jitter (in other words, any issues with re-clocking are down entirely to the re-clocking system itself and are unaffected by the cable).

So, my test proves that the cable does not matter, only the quality of the DAC.

 

[WindowsX]

Stereophile: Jitter, Bits, & Sound Quality

Well explanation with graph and such...

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WindowsX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stereophile: Jitter, Bits, & Sound Quality Well explanation with graph and such...

1) This article includes no Listening tests
2) The conjecture (1993) about audibility has been rendered suspect by...

Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality
Eric Benjamin and Benjamin Gannon (Dolby Laboratories Inc)
1998
-----------------------------
Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital audio
Kaoru Ashihara, Shogo Kiryu, Nobuo Koizumi, Akira Nishimura, Juro Ohga, Masaki Sawaguchi and Shokichiro Yoshikawa
-----------------------------
K. Ashihara and S. Kiryu, “The maximum permissible size and detection threshold of time jitter on digital audio,” J. Acoust. Soc. Jpn. (J), 59, 241–249 (2003).
------------------------------
T. Tomizawa, H. Ohtake and J. Ohga, “Effect of jitter for listening by a few musical signals,” Proc. Spring Meet. Acoust. Soc. Jpn., pp. 703–704 (2003).
------------------------------

 

[dvw]

Can any one describe what jitter sounds like? How do you know you are hearing jitter?

 

[TopPop]

You know, what I really find funny about these kinds of discussions is that, while appearing to be scientifically based, they don't seem to adhere to scientific tradition much at all.

You can never "prove" that something exists. That's not where the burden of proof lies. It's on the shoulders of science to disprove a claim. That's all that science can do.

So... therefore...

I believe that cables make a difference.

Prove me wrong.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know, what I really find funny about these kinds of discussions is that, while appearing to be scientifically based, they don't seem to adhere to scientific tradition much at all. You can never "prove" that something exists. That's not where the burden of proof lies. It's on the shoulders of science to disprove a claim. That's all that science can do. So... therefore... I believe that cables make a difference. Prove me wrong.

What differences do you hear with cables?