[TopPop]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier /img/forum/go_quote.gif What differences do you hear with cables?

Well, to take a very recent example, I'm currently trying to find some new analog IC's to go between my DAC and headphone amp. I came to the conclusion that I need a new set, because after many listening trials with the few pairs that I currently own, not one pair did everything right.

The differences were more than slightly noticeable, and came in the areas of treble extension, treble smoothness, midrange "punch", bass extension, and bass tightness, to name a few. The differences I heard were of a specific balance and degree for each cable, and were the same each and every time that I tried any given cable.

To be fair and honest: no, these were not d***** b**** tests that I performed (edited for the sake of the moderator!

), so some may say these are only placebo effects. To that I have two things to note:

1) The cables that I had expected to sound the worst - due to age and low price - are actually the ones that I'm currently using. The others are now in the closet...

2) One of the effects of one set of cables was to the point of being physical: I got a headache when I listened to them because the treble was too harsh. Now, that's a pretty strong placebo effect, if you ask me.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[dvessel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yea, but when we say we hear a difference -- an improvement -- when we switch cables in our own systems, we are told "placebo effect", or "delusuion".

I'm lead to believe that is the case *most* of the time. Some of the arguments around here almost makes me go mad. All this about *believing* is a complete turn-off and makes me wonder why I come here to gain some knowledge on the matter. As a relatively new comer, this community looks like a bunch of kooks. No offense, seriously.. Most may not care but with the way things move around here, it may just attract more and perpetuate a lot of the same and eventually fall apart. -That's just an observation for whatever it's worth.

Quote:

So we look to see if any theory backs this up. And it does for USB cables. Moreover not just theory -- the certification body usb.org seems to indicate that these crap USB cables exist. No salesman pressured me. Spending $12 for a USB cable instead of $3 -- once in a lifetime -- makes perfect sense given the research I have done.

I have no issue with decent quality USB cables myself. The way the conversation was going, I assumed the discussion was toward really expensive USB cables vs. your everyday $12 cables.

Quote:

Use whatever you want, and hope there is (a) either no bit loss, or (b) the bit loss is inaudible. You might very well be right. But I will spend less than price of three Starbucks Venti Lattes to guarantee no bit loss. The logic behind my decision seems pefect, and nothing posted since attacks that logic. I did not spend the extra nine bucks out of fear, despite what bigshot said. I thought it through carefully, as all my posts prove, actually spending more time on it that the trivial money spread deserves, because I was interested. It's "risk/return" analysis, not fear. Once I know that a USB cable in the real-world can drop bits, the decision makes itself at this level of spend.

What bothered me is that well.. Okay, you have a working USB cable. It's certified, that's fine and it works great but to see a thread where the arguments go on and on and on and on.. I wasn't trying to take sides but if it works, leave it at that and move on. I'd think that there are more critical components that affect sound quality.

Quote:

I hope everyone is having a great holiday weekend!

Same here.

 

[Terminus Est 23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, to take a very recent example, I'm currently trying to find some new analog IC's to go between my DAC and headphone amp. I came to the conclusion that I need a new set, because after many listening trials with the few pairs that I currently own, not one pair did everything right. The differences were more than slightly noticeable, and came in the areas of treble extension, treble smoothness, midrange "punch", bass extension, and bass tightness, to name a few. The differences I heard were of a specific balance and degree for each cable, and were the same each and every time that I tried any given cable. To be fair and honest: no, these were not d***** b**** tests that I performed (edited for the sake of the moderator! ), so some may say these are only placebo effects. To that I have two things to note: 1) The cables that I had expected to sound the worst - due to age and low price - are actually the ones that I'm currently using. The others are now in the closet... 2) One of the effects of one set of cables was to the point of being physical: I got a headache when I listened to them because the treble was too harsh. Now, that's a pretty strong placebo effect, if you ask me. Cheers, Chris

That's pretty mild placebo effect, actually.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif no, these were not d***** b**** tests that I performed

If someone isn't able to demonstrate audible differences, there is nothing to investigate, scientifically or otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now, that's a pretty strong placebo effect, if you ask me.

I agree, that is a strong placebo effect.

 

[Terminus Est 23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know, what I really find funny about these kinds of discussions is that, while appearing to be scientifically based, they don't seem to adhere to scientific tradition much at all. You can never "prove" that something exists. That's not where the burden of proof lies. It's on the shoulders of science to disprove a claim. That's all that science can do. So... therefore... I believe that cables make a difference. Prove me wrong.

I believe that Santa Claus exists, prove me wrong.

 

[TopPop]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terminus Est 23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's pretty mild placebo effect, actually.

I would have to disagree.

I understand that the mind can, and does, trick the body into feeling physical effects under certain conditions, however I find it "hard to believe" (flame suit on) that this is the case here.

Misperceptions in frequency extension, or even weight, I could say would be probable. Your mind wants to hear something, so it does.

But the cables that now give me the headache were previously used in another system, where they sounded wonderful. I had expected - and hoped - that they would "sound" the same in this new system. Not only did I not expect them to "sound" the way they do, I certainly didn't expect to receive mild physical pain from their presence in the audio chain!

 

[TopPop]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terminus Est 23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe that Santa Claus exists, prove me wrong.

I can't... that's the point.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with listening to music.

I've been talking about music over in the HeadFi music forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where do you buy your audio gear, Steve?

Lately, I figure out what I want then go shopping online. The only thing I wouldn't buy that way is speakers. (Last time I went speaker shopping, it took nearly six hours- the salesmen eventually left me alone to do the A/B switching myself.) I also buy second hand equipment from friends or pick it up at studios that are going out of business. Cables I buy at Radio Shack because it's worth spending a dollar or two more for the convenience of shopping on weekends and evenings.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif So we look to see if any theory backs this up. And it does for USB cables. Moreover not just theory -- the certification body usb.org seems to indicate that these crap USB cables exist. No salesman pressured me. Spending $12 for a USB cable instead of $3 -- once in a lifetime -- makes perfect sense given the research I have done.

That makes sense to me. My point is that spending more than the cost of lunch on a cable isn't going to get you better sound, not that there's not defective merchandise out there. A reasonably good USB or optical cable will sound just as good as the most expensive one (unless the expensive one is defective).

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can any one describe what jitter sounds like? How do you know you are hearing jitter?

Ooooo! A REALLY good question!

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe that cables make a difference. Prove me wrong.

You aren't wrong. There are two types of cables... those that are conducting signal efficiently, and those that don't. If the level of efficiency is below the threshold of audibility, a cable will sound just like every other cable, if it isn't, you will hear a difference, and you should get a new cable.

See ya
Steve

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been talking about music over in the HeadFi music forum.

I'm in the basement working with cables. But need to put some tunes on.

-

Enjoy the holiday weekend everyone.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif One of the effects of one set of cables was to the point of being physical: I got a headache when I listened to them because the treble was too harsh.

You have an equalization problem. Swapping cables won't help. The easiest solution would be to get a perfectly good set of cables for ten bucks and just adjust the tone controls. However, if the frequency response of your headphones has a large, narrow spike in the frequencies above 10kHz, regular tone controls aren't going to help. You will need an equalizer to create a notch filter. That's unlikely though. Most good quality headphones don't do that.

See ya
Steve

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopPop /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know, what I really find funny about these kinds of discussions is that, while appearing to be scientifically based, they don't seem to adhere to scientific tradition much at all. You can never "prove" that something exists. That's not where the burden of proof lies. It's on the shoulders of science to disprove a claim. That's all that science can do.

Actually it's the exact opposite. You can only prove that things exist, and it's impossible to prove negatives - the scientific method is about discovery, not negation. Hence, the Santa Claus analogy given later.

Unless you were being sarcastic, I couldn't tell...

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terminus Est 23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe that Santa Claus exists, prove me wrong.

You're not wrong. You just think like a four year old child.