[tecnos6]

Will do! First impressions are good. Powers my LCD-Xs lovely. Very clean sound, very low noise, could do with a bit more on the LF side. Very pleased for the price and its got balanced inputs which is what I needed. Impossible to find another with balanced inputs. I find it amazing the much more expensive amps don't have this .
 
Thanks again,
 
Colin

 

[ginetto61]

Will do! First impressions are good. Powers my LCD-Xs lovely. Very clean sound, very low noise, could do with a bit more on the LF side. Very pleased for the price and its got balanced inputs which is what I needed. Impossible to find another with balanced inputs.
I find it amazing the much more expensive amps don't have this .
Thanks again,
Colin

Hi again Colin,'
i have dacs with xlr outs as well.
I bought it after seeing some measurements somewhere very impressive indeed.  I guess the design is solid.
Another particularity is that inputs are buffered.
I think i have to give it some more time to settle down before judging.
However i am liking the other two cheaper HP amps from the same brand as well.
Regards, gino

 

[GeoffW]

   
Using the dt880 600 ohm i tend to prefer this one ... same brand ... nice unit ... 
 
http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/smsl-sap-8-cnc-class-a-hifi-home-stereo-headphone-amplifier-mkp-alps-tocos.html
 

 
Regards,  gino 

 
The smsl SAP-8 is a fine little amp for the money, but no one seems to know about it. Most places have it for $100, but I got mine for about $85 shipped, although it took 3 weeks to arrive. I wasn't expecting much, but I was pleasantly surprised. It's detailed and warm, with a large soundstage. It advertises "soft class A sounds", but I don't know if it's true class A. The softer sounds seem to come from the 3 op amps (brand VMV). I replaced them temporarily with my own LME49990, which are quite good, but I think the smsl op amps are a little better. Maybe they are trying to copy the famous MUSES01 op amp.
 
I have the smsl VA2, which is also very good, but costs more. The VA2 may be slightly more detailed (hard to tell), but the natural sounding warmth and larger soundstage of the SAP-8 sound very good to my ears. I've noticed that amps with a large soundstage also have good "crosstalk" or "channel separation" specs, and that holds true for the SAP-8 vs VA2. But the VA1 crosstalk is an amazing 135db at 1kHz, so I would guess it has the largest soundstage. The other VA1 specs are excellent as well.

 

[ginetto61]

 
The smsl SAP-8 is a fine little amp for the money, but no one seems to know about it. Most places have it for $100, but I got mine for about $85 shipped, although it took 3 weeks to arrive. I wasn't expecting much, but I was pleasantly surprised. It's detailed and warm, with a large soundstage. It advertises "soft class A sounds", but I don't know if it's true class A. The softer sounds seem to come from the 3 op amps (brand VMV). I replaced them temporarily with my own LME49990, which are quite good, but I think the smsl op amps are a little better. Maybe they are trying to copy the famous MUSES01 op amp.

 
Hi ! thanks a lot for the confirmation of the good sound.  Your comments mirror my impression.  A very enjoyable sound.
However i wonder if a better power supply could help with the SAP-8 .
Have you tried anything better than the stock one ?
 

I have the smsl VA2, which is also very good, but costs more. The VA2 may be slightly more detailed (hard to tell), but the natural sounding warmth and larger soundstage of the SAP-8 sound very good to my ears. I've noticed that amps with a large soundstage also have good "crosstalk" or "channel separation" specs, and that holds true for the SAP-8 vs VA2.

 
Good to know !  i would stay then on the Sap-8 ... soundstage is a big challenge for an electronics ... and musical sound is very important to me.
I could buy another one as spare ... the price is so nice.
 
 

But the VA1 crosstalk is an amazing 135db at 1kHz, so I would guess it has the largest soundstage. The other VA1 specs are excellent as well.

 
I have also the VA1 ... i am not using it now.  I want to be honest.
I bought it on the basis of the spectacular low noise and distortion specified.  I am a believer on measurements.
When i opened it

  i found only op-amps ---

However the sound was ok ... less beautiful of the sap-8.  BUT !   i have now the feeling that i should have been more patient.
I am pretty sure it is not broken-in rightly.  I should give it more time to flesh out completely ... and then listening seriously.
I bought it also for the balanced input (my dac has XLR outs).
Also i do not like the mains transformer inside ... i like so much external transformer with umbilical ... i have something in mind actually ...
One impressive thing is the amount of uF in the power supply ... it is a lot indeed.
 
To end i would like to ramble a bit.
 
I have a very very strong feeling that taken a basically "robust" design and modify the ancillary parts like volume pot, connectors, box, wires and so on a very good improvement can be obtained.   For instance i was shocked by the improvement given by using a decent stepped attenuator on a same line preamp.  Unbelievable.
And this would be my long term project.
Take the board of one of these very nice units and upgrade the parts around it (and maybe better parts on the board).
The result could be very remarkable.
But i need time ... and i have very little now.
Thanks a lot again for the important confirmation on the sap-8 sound.
Regards, gino

 

[GeoffW]

Yes, I have the whole smsl stack (M8 + P1 + VA2), and I tried the P1 power supply with the SAP-8 since it is 12v like the VA2, but it doesn't seem to have enough power. Maybe not enough current. The SAP-8 sounds great with it's own cheap power supply, but  the P1 would be better. It improves the sound for both the M8 and VA2. But I do see some cheap linear power supplies from China on ebay. Maybe they would work.
 
I think the SAP-8 was designed to be fiddled with, like you enjoy doing. It's easy to take it apart and solder components on the board, or replace op amps. But the VA2 is impossible. It's built like a tank. All I can do is take off the back cover. I saw a picture of someone on the net who did manage to expose the board inside, but it still had a protective shield over it's parts! Seems like they are trying to hide something.
 
That's a shame about the VA1, but yes you have to be patient. The SAP-8 sounded very bad when I got it, but after 6 hours it was much better, so I stayed with it and seems to be improving more. I think these amps need a few days at least. Just leave it playing without listening to it. I was initially attracted to the VA1 by it's specs, which are very clean. I also found a site (no longer there)  in which smsl claimed that the VA1 was inspired by the Parasound Lyra (a $2500 box). I think the Lyra is mostly a recording box, but many people loved it's headphone out. If you compare the specs of the Lyra and VA1, they are identical, even though they are from different companies.

 

[ginetto61]

   Yes, I have the whole smsl stack (M8 + P1 + VA2), and I tried the P1 power supply with the SAP-8 since it is 12v like the VA2, but it doesn't seem to have enough power. Maybe not enough current.  
The SAP-8 sounds great with it's own cheap power supply, but the P1 would be better. It improves the sound for both the M8 and VA2.
But I do see some cheap linear power supplies from China on ebay. Maybe they would work.

 
Hi again !  thanks for the valuable information
To find a very low noise PS is not that easy.  It is not only the noise generated by the PS but also the noise in the mains that can reach the equipment if not filtered conveniently.
I did some tests with dacs ... the quality of the PS is very very important with dacs.   With phono preamp also very much but with line preamps in my opinion less.   So for an headphone amp a decent PS should be enough.
Personally i would like to see more uF placed very close to the circuit ... and not only small uF for bypass like in the VA1.  There are a lot of uF in the PS but very little on the board and all small.
 

I think the SAP-8 was designed to be fiddled with, like you enjoy doing. It's easy to take it apart and solder components on the board, or replace op amps.

 
the idea in the future would be to pull out the board and place it in a bigge box.  Then some parts change and a very good volume attenuator.  This is usually extremely beneficial.
On this point i did some tests with attenuators.   I compared an Alps Blue Velvet (i think this is the name) with a stepped attenuator made with Holco resistors.
The Alps was ok.  The attenuator was just amazing.   The sound was so sharp and focused to be unbelievable. 
I was shocked litteraly.   The pot is so important that people cannot image. It is a must for me.  But it needs space of course.
So i would use a bigger box.   The improvement should be tremendous.
Of course we must select a board already nicely sounding.  Like the littel SAP-8 for instance.
 

But the VA2 is impossible. It's built like a tank. All I can do is take off the back cover. 
I saw a picture of someone on the net who did manage to expose the board inside, but it still had a protective shield over it's parts! Seems like they are trying to hide something.  

 
Interesting.  But from what you say about the sound i will stay with the SAP-8 ... for me nice sound and good soundstage are very important.
 

That's a shame about the VA1, but yes you have to be patient. The SAP-8 sounded very bad when I got it, but after 6 hours it was much better, so I stayed with it and seems to be improving more. I think these amps need a few days at least. Just leave it playing without listening to it. I was initially attracted to the VA1 by it's specs, which are very clean. I also found a site (no longer there) in which smsl claimed that the VA1 was inspired by the Parasound Lyra (a $2500 box). I think the Lyra is mostly a recording box, but many people loved it's headphone out. If you compare the specs of the Lyra and VA1, they are identical, even though they are from different companies.

 
I cannot find info on the Parasound Lyra ... what is it ?
The sound from the VA1 was very clean but a little dry and flat.  Usually with break-in the sound can open up and warm up.   Actually i am more involved in audio interfaces for PC.
I listen to music only with the PC and some interfaces are very very transparent.   And some they have also a nice headphone outs.
So i am studying them because and interface with a very good headphone out could be very handy.
I have to study them anyway.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,  gino 

 

[GeoffW]

I did some tests with dacs ... the quality of the PS is very very important with dacs.   With phono preamp also very much but with line preamps in my opinion less.   So for an headphone amp a decent PS should be enough.
Personally i would like to see more uF placed very close to the circuit ... and not only small uF for bypass like in the VA1.  There are a lot of uF in the PS but very little on the board and all small.

Yes, the P1 unit I have does improve the M8 dac. I think it is very significant, but some others can't hear. Maybe they need better headphones.

Is it possible to put in new caps with larger values?

 
 
 

the idea in the future would be to pull out the board and place it in a bigge box.  Then some parts change and a very good volume attenuator.  This is usually extremely beneficial.
The Alps was ok.  The attenuator was just amazing.   The sound was so sharp and focused to be unbelievable. 

This is the first thing I noticed in the SAP-8. The volume seemed very cheap.  But I think this amp may be worth playing with and upgrading. I can solder and desolder, but I wouldn't know what to replace. Attenuator, high quality caps? 
 
Smsl advertises for SAP-8:  "High precision low drift resistance High performance ultra low ripple design of special switch audio power supply TOCOS potentiometer are outstanding audio material durable and easy to use". But I'm sure it can be improved upon.

 
 

I cannot find info on the Parasound Lyra ... what is it ?

 
 
Sorry, my mistake - it's the Prism Sound Lyra. But I still can't find any information connecting it with the VA1. Last year, a few pages advertised the VA1 as being inspired by the Prism Sound Lyra. The specs between the Lyra's analog section and the VA1 are identical, so it may be more than "inspired"
 

I listen to music only with the PC and some interfaces are very very transparent.   And some they have also a nice headphone outs.

 
Me too. The smsl M8 dac via usb is very transparent, especially for the money. It's actually quite a high-end dac, and very senstive to the power supply. Some of my dsd tracks upsampled to DSD128 on the pc and fed to the M8 sound incredible. 

But a good, high resolving headphone is the most important thing. Without it, you can't hear all these high-end mods. For the last few weeks, I've been experimenting with different wiring for my old sony CD3000, and it makes a huge difference. I think many headphones would really benefit from better wiring tailored to their drivers.
 
Regards, -Jeff

 

[ginetto61]

  Yes, the P1 unit I have does improve the M8 dac. I think it is very significant, but some others can't hear. Maybe they need better headphones. Is it possible to put in new caps with larger values?  
 

 
Hi Jeff !
clearly not all HPs are enough revealing to show differences in sound.
I have many mid price HP and i am getting good sound now from an old Akg k501 ... nice sound and quite natural.
Bigger caps need space.  But i do not believe to the too much uF issue.  For me the more the uF the better always.  Caps keep noise down.
 

This is the first thing I noticed in the SAP-8. The volume seemed very cheap. But I think this amp may be worth playing with and upgrading. I can solder and desolder, but I wouldn't know what to replace. Attenuator, high quality caps? Smsl advertises for SAP-8: "High precision low drift resistance High performance ultra low ripple design of special switch audio power supply TOCOS potentiometer are outstanding audio material durable and easy to use".
But I'm sure it can be improved upon.

 
The volume has to be cheap to keep the price low.  While there can be a pot with an excellent quality/price ratio the usual attenuator are quite bulky.  And they need space.
If i had to modify the unit i would think immediately to change the box with something bigger.   There are wonderful box on ebay ... like the one here below.   Wonderful.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2106T-silver-Full-Aluminum-Enclosure-mini-AMP-case-PSU-chassis-DAC-box-/161998949974?hash=item25b7e3ce56:g:L6sAAOSwu-BWO~k0
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BZ2106-silver-Full-Aluminum-Enclosure-mini-AMP-case-PSU-chassis-DAC-box-/272031783183?hash=item3f565b990f:g:93EAAOSwI-BWM5GV
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Aluminium-DAC-Chassis-Enclosure-Case-for-PCM1794-AK4118-DAC-decoder-/141490040288?hash=item20f176ade0:g:uGgAAOSwQJhUeq8H
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Aluminum-Amplifier-Chassis-Enclosure-For-HiFi-DAC-Box-145-90-311mm-/261853475583?hash=item3cf7aef2ff:g:FC4AAOSw34FVHT2I
 
these boxes provide a lot of room inside to place the board ... if the basic sound of the amp is good some mods in the details can elevate sound quality even further.
For instance i am also believer in using quality connectors for both ins and outs ... very important a good contact quality for the signal. Litlle step towards better overall sound.
 

Sorry, my mistake - it's the Prism Sound Lyra.
But I still can't find any information connecting it with the VA1. Last year, a few pages advertised the VA1 as being inspired by the Prism Sound Lyra.
The specs between the Lyra's analog section and the VA1 are identical, so it may be more than "inspired"

 
Very interesting.  As i said i bought a VA1 mainly for the xlr inputs and for the stated specifications, very low noise and distortion.
The sound has always been very clean but flat and a little dry.  I am sure that more hours are needed for the sound to develop ... IMHE some units can take many days before sounding at their full potential.
 

Me too. The smsl M8 dac via usb is very transparent, especially for the money. It's actually quite a high-end dac, and very senstive to the power supply. Some of my dsd tracks upsampled to DSD128 on the pc and fed to the M8 sound incredible.
But a good, high resolving headphone is the most important thing. Without it, you can't hear all these high-end mods.
For the last few weeks, I've been experimenting with different wiring for my old sony CD3000, and it makes a huge difference. I think many headphones would really benefit from better wiring tailored to their drivers.
Regards, -Jeff

 
Recently i have changed a little my approach.   I am studying audio interfaces for pc.   Some of them are really good for the price and they have also very nice HP out for monitoring the sound.
I listen only through the pc ... it is my main and only source nowadays.   Problem is that i am always on the move.
I have a friend who has a very high quality analog rig.   The idea would be to compare the direct sound from a good LP with the same sound but after going through the AD/DA conversion of a audio interface.
If the difference will be almost null this will say a lot about the transparency of the interface.   And i that point i will consider to stop listening to equipment and start listening to music

Thanks a lot again  Jeff !
Have a nice day
gino

 

[GeoffW]

If i had to modify the unit i would think immediately to change the box with something bigger.   There are wonderful box on ebay ... like the one here below.   Wonderful.

 
Those are some nice boxes! Makes me want to build something...
 

this bow give a lot of room inside to place the board ... if the basic sound of the amp is good some mods in the details can be benficial.
For instance i am also believer in using quality connectors for both ins and outs ... very important a good contact quality for the signal. Litlle step towards better overall sound.

 
You are right. It makes a huge difference. That's why people pay $300 just for a set of 4 male WBT or Furutech RCA connectors, without the wire. Maybe, if you have the money, you can just go upgrading parts one-by-one until your amp sounds the way you want. I'm doing that with my headphone now, with wires and connectors. It works, but it can get expensive, so you have to be somewhat selective.
 

Very interesting.  As i said i bought a VA1 mainly for the xlr inputs and for the stated specifications, very low noise and distortion.
The sound has always been very clean but flat and a little dry.  I am sure that more hours are needed for the sound to develop ... IMHE some units can take many days before sounding at their full potential.

 
You could also try replacing the op amps for a sound better to your liking. I think the VA1 has even more than the SAP-8 to experiment with (6?). But op-amp rolling can be expensive too. Some consider the MUSES01 the best op amp, but it's about $50 for just one. My LME49990's were $17 each.
 

listen only through the pc ... it is my main and only source nowadays.   Problem is that i am always on the move.

 
You could get a portable DAC/Amp. Those are quite good these days. Maybe the Oppo HA-2, or Chord Mojo, or IFI micro or something. The smsl stack I have is not really portable, but it is transportable - you can put in a travel bag for your hotel, but you can't really listen to it on a train.
 

I have a friend who has a very high quality analog rig.   The idea would be to compare the direct sound of a good LP with the same sound but after going through the AD/DA conversion of a audio interface.

I never understood the whole LP thing, but then again I have yet to hear a good rig live. I have not been impressed with some of the 24/192 flacs sampled from an LP, but of course something essential is lost.
 
Regards, -Jeff

 

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by GeoffW /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
Those are some nice boxes! Makes me want to build something...

 
Hi Jeff !  yes.  I also like very much robust and nice looking boxes.
I believe also in keeping the mains transformer out of the box ... not very handy but the transformer can vibrate ... emitt EMI ... is usually a "dirty" component
 

You are right. It makes a huge difference. That's why people pay $300 just for a set of 4 male WBT or Furutech RCA connectors, without the wire.
Maybe, if you have the money, you can just go upgrading parts one-by-one until your amp sounds the way you want. I'm doing that with my headphone now, with wires and connectors.
It works, but it can get expensive, so you have to be somewhat selective. 

 
Yes the prices can be very very high.   It is always to find a good quality/price ratio. But i agree that very good parts cannot be very cheap ... quality materials and construction are expensive.
The best would be to use male and female from the same manufacturer ... this should provide the best matching.
 

You could also try replacing the op amps for a sound better to your liking. I think the VA1 has even more than the SAP-8 to experiment with (6?). But op-amp rolling can be expensive too.
Some consider the MUSES01 the best op amp, but it's about $50 for just one. My LME49990's were $17 each. 

 
I see this very very tricky especially because the original opamp are not identifiable ... there is the logo of the brand.  So it is difficult to check for equivalent parts.
I am not that expert.  Op-amp can be very sensitive and make noise if not correctly used.
 

You could get a portable DAC/Amp. Those are quite good these days. Maybe the Oppo HA-2, or Chord Mojo, or IFI micro or something.
The smsl stack I have is not really portable, but it is transportable - you can put in a travel bag for your hotel, but you can't really listen to it on a train.

 
Actually it is my intention.  To have a unit able to work as dac, headphone amp and line preamp in a single box
That would help in simplifying the system.   I am reading a lot of reviews of such units ... unfortunately the very good ones are not cheap

 

I never understood the whole LP thing, but then again I have yet to hear a good rig live.
I have not been impressed with some of the 24/192 flacs sampled from an LP, but of course something essential is lost.
Regards, -Jeff 

 
I have no 1st hand experience with digital recording of LP.  But i read some comments about a very high quality recorder.
if the playback system is really high resolution there are differences especially in soundstage (smaller in the copy).  So the AD/DA passage is not lossless at all. Something is taken out.
Of course the best AD/DA system take out less.  These is what i am reading about now ... audio interfaces for pc.  I am in the learning phase.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,  gino

 

[ginetto61]

   Will do! First impressions are good. Powers my LCD-Xs lovely. Very clean sound, very low noise, could do with a bit more on the LF side.
Very pleased for the price and its got balanced inputs which is what I needed. Impossible to find another with balanced inputs. I find it amazing the much more expensive amps don't have this .
Thanks again,
Colin

 
Hi Colin !  always pleased with your VA1 or you have moved to something else ?
Your opinion is very valuable to me  because your HPs are just great and extremely revealing.
Update me please.
Thanks a lot indeed.
Regards, gino  

 

[tecnos6]

Hey Gino, sorry for the soooo late reply, I have just purchased a Matrix M-stage HPA-3B so a bit of an upgrade from the VA1.
I would say at the price point the VA1 is very good and nothing in its price range has balanced inputs which makes for a really clean sounding low noise amp. I have never used the unbalanced inputs so cant comment on that. After using it for a while now I think the LCD-X is to big a headphone for this amp, and they only really start to 'drive' when the volume is at maximum, if the VA1 had a little more juice it would be awesome (At that price). I will compare it with the HPA-3B when it arrives.

 

[bwcgrx]

I picked up one of these recently for a little over $100 when the price was dropping wildly on Amazon.  The price has since returned closer to the $200 mark at this time.
 
I really like the amp, it powers most headphones well.  It has amazing clarity and absolutely zero noise.  I do concur with others in this thread in that the lower frequency response is just a touch light and the mid range can be a bit flat.
 
Anyone know if the op amps in this are dual or single?   I've got some extra Burson V5 op amps and I was thinking of swapping some out and seeing how they change the little VA1.  I just don't want to stick a dual in a single socket or vice versa.

 

[ginetto61]

Hey Gino, sorry for the soooo late reply, I have just purchased a Matrix M-stage HPA-3B so a bit of an upgrade from the VA1.
I would say at the price point the VA1 is very good and nothing in its price range has balanced inputs which makes for a really clean sounding low noise amp.
I have never used the unbalanced inputs so cant comment on that.
After using it for a while now I think the LCD-X is to big a headphone for this amp, and they only really start to 'drive' when the volume is at maximum,
if the VA1 had a little more juice it would be awesome (At that price).
I will compare it with the HPA-3B when it arrives.

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable reply.
Actually I bought it exactly for the presence of XLR inputs.  My dacs have balanced outs. 
And also impressed by the specifications (extremely low thd+noise, my final goal always in any audio device)
I am a little scared by modify it also because the op-amps markings are deleted.  
So I have no clue about which other parts could work without issues.
Thanks a lot again,  gino 

 

[ginetto61]

  I picked up one of these recently for a little over $100 when the price was dropping wildly on Amazon.  The price has since returned closer to the $200 mark at this time.
I really like the amp, it powers most headphones well.  It has amazing clarity and absolutely zero noise.  
I do concur with others in this thread in that the lower frequencyresponse is just a touch light and the mid range can be a bit flat.
Anyone know if the op amps in this are dual or single?   I've got some extra Burson V5 op amps and I was thinking of swapping some out and seeing how they change the little VA1.  
I just don't want to stick a dual in a single socket or vice versa.

 
Hi !  thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
Unfortunately the op-amps markings are deleted.   However imh experience increasing a little the uF close to the opamps (i.e. from V+/-  to ground) can add some body (more bass essentially).  
I guess the voltage rail are +/-15V but I have not measured. 
I was thinking to use something like 2x 1000 uF  for each output opamp and listen, maybe with a little bypass plast cap underneath the pcb.    
I have already some Panasonic that I could use.
Clearly more powerful opamps would be the best option. 
I am waiting for some desoldering braid I have ordered. 
After the summer vacation I will look at the unit.  I have just to identified the right pins.
This will be a reversible mod, If I will not damage something of course.
I have no idea about how to identify the opamps in the units.  
If you do anything please post here.
Thanks a lot again,  gino