[headdict]

Who of you owns a clip?

If you mean Sansa clip in all variations, I am proud owner of four zips.
But why are you posting this question here on this particular thread?

 

[Ruben123]

Just curious! Keep reading clip is a very cheap though good dap which may be the only one you need for ''audiophile'' listening.

 

[Ruben123]

All headphones can reproduce music, so if that's your only requirement then buy the cheapest ones you can find. Some of us are searching for maximum detail and natural sound, and EQ can help to achieve that goal.

But there should be an absolute minimum I guess? Not every $15 can be eqed to sound like $200, but I get your point. $50 could be eqed to $200+ if done well.

 

[lamode]

But there should be an absolute minimum I guess? Not every $15 can be eqed to sound like $200, but I get your point. $50 could be eqed to $200+ if done well.

Exactly, and once all headphones are EQ'd, the ranking and "bang for buck" might change radically.

 

[headdict]

Just curious! Keep reading clip is a very cheap though good dap which may be the only one you need for ''audiophile'' listening.

Yes, with Rockbox it may be all you'll ever need, if it can drive your headphones.

 

[castleofargh]

I always keep at least 2(I officially have 4 but my mum steals then break them/lose them/make them swim on a regular basis, so I need to buy 2 or 3 ever year), nowadays I use them mostly for audiobooks and as backup, but I've been using them as main DAP for years before.
the thing about a sansa clip(or + or zip or...) is that it's very small and relatively cheap. so even if you don't love the sound, you will find a use for it. for sport, or as a backup when your "real" DAP runs out of battery. it's so small that it's no problem to carry one around just in case.
 
added to that, the DAP has flat signature, 1ohm output, and reasonable but not amazing measurements. so while it's not audiophile, it's the best "use and forget" you can dream of.
also if you buy a version that is supported by rockbox, you also get the best EQ on a non android DAP.
so no it's not the best, but many more expensive DAP are bigger, heavier, will not sound a lot better. let's not forget that we're talking about music on the go here, the portability is half of the problem and with a sansa, it's not a problem at all.

 

[headdict]

If portability is not an issue, do you know of any DAP that is objectively better, also in terms of EQ capabilities?

 

[castleofargh]

If portability is not an issue, do you know of any DAP that is objectively better, also in terms of EQ capabilities?

a good deal of DAPs are objectively better. I doubt it's obviously audible though unless impedance starts changing the signature. in fact an iphone is objectively better nowadays. I believe portable audio to have nicely improved in the last years, with more and more stuff sounding reasonably transparent.
 
now for EQ capabilities, sadly no. unless you can rockbox the DAP or have an android DAP, I doubt you can get even remotely close. in fact I chose to hardcode some EQ because I find most of my DAP really not good enough in the EQ department(like my sony with no way to lower anything below 400hz...)
I guess looking for what DAP can be rockboxed would be the best way to go at it. I didn't see a DX50 rockboxed so I don't know what functions are available, maybe the dx90 can be too (didn't really follow the thread but I believe I've seen that written somewhere). I think I remember a ihifi could be rockboxed too. but you'll have to look for more information.
 
else if you get a nice sounding android DAP, installing viper4android on it opens a very wild range of crazy cool DSPs(real cool, I'm not talking surround laser cats, but really advanced tweakable stuff). I hate android in a DAP, but I often think about getting one just because of viper.

 

[bigshot]

Someone should back up the Audiophile Myths thread and all the links there. Our little friend has taken his comedy act there now and he's trying to get that thread locked too.

 

[Steve Eddy]

When my wife says "Ohhhh yeah. BIG difference...." her eyes are usually rolling into the back of her head.

So I guess you'll be returning that bottle of Enzyte for a refund, eh? :veryevil:

se

 

[Ruben123]

 
My little brother is a bit handier with the solder iron etc, so I let him get my Clip+ living again. Well I helped. I cut a small piece of an extension cable, he soldered it to the motherboard (original 3.5mm jack gone dead) and with some glue and duct tape we have made the Clip as a Russian tank.
 
By opening the Clip I put some angels, rhinestones, golden coins and some angels in it. Also spot the golden connector of the extension cable. Adds quite some freshness to the sound!
 
Sounds great again. Remember the Clips are here around $60.
 
 
I dont get what you say here though: "a good deal of DAPs are objectively better. I doubt it's obviously audible though unless impedance starts changing the signature. in fact an iphone is objectively better nowadays. I believe portable audio to have nicely improved in the last years, with more and more stuff sounding reasonably transparent."
 
A good DAP should sound the same as another? And since the 0.5 Ohm imp of the Clip I dont get why others are better, other for the relatively weak amp.

 

[headdict]

 
a good deal of DAPs are objectively better. I doubt it's obviously audible though unless impedance starts changing the signature. in fact an iphone is objectively better nowadays. I believe portable audio to have nicely improved in the last years, with more and more stuff sounding reasonably transparent.
 
now for EQ capabilities, sadly no. unless you can rockbox the DAP or have an android DAP, I doubt you can get even remotely close. in fact I chose to hardcode some EQ because I find most of my DAP really not good enough in the EQ department(like my sony with no way to lower anything below 400hz...)
I guess looking for what DAP can be rockboxed would be the best way to go at it. I didn't see a DX50 rockboxed so I don't know what functions are available, maybe the dx90 can be too (didn't really follow the thread but I believe I've seen that written somewhere). I think I remember a ihifi could be rockboxed too. but you'll have to look for more information.
 
else if you get a nice sounding android DAP, installing viper4android on it opens a very wild range of crazy cool DSPs(real cool, I'm not talking surround laser cats, but really advanced tweakable stuff). I hate android in a DAP, but I often think about getting one just because of viper.

Thanks for this exhaustive answer. I definitely owe you a cognac for that! 

 
By "hardcoding EQ" you mean recoding audio files with an EQ profile targeted to a specific phone that you intend to use them with, I suppose. You must be très désespéré. 

 
Now for the real options... 

 
Rockbox'able DAP - yeah, thought about that. It would have to be able to drive full-size headphones like T1 or my old AKG K500 or my future planar phones. That would be DX90, I guess. I'm currently not ready to spend this kind of money on mere electronics, but it's certainly worth a closer look. I would like to get rid of stock Rockbox's rather limited Q-value range, though. (Too limited for some narrower treble peaks.) Maybe doable by editing and recompiling the source code. Something to be checked...
 
By "android DAP" you mean a real DAP rather than a smartphone? I never considered that. Since such stuff is not very wide spread compared to smartphones, I wonder if it would be easy to root, and if it would be supported by the Viper community. I suppose it would come with some nice stuff, like line out, but would lack network streaming capability on the other hand. Output impedance and power also to be checked...
 
I have a Note II lying around - no longer in use. Easy to root and run Viper on. Output power insufficient and no line out. Not a real option, but I have it available for experiments.
 
I'll have to think about it some more. For now clip zip does the job pretty good - with a little help from its friend, the FiiO E12. 

 

 

[uchihaitachi]

What has been upto this point in time the DAP that has shown the best measurements under and without load?

I have seen the dscopeiii readings of the fiio x3 and it seems remarkably good. Any other ones?

 

[bigshot]

That depends on the load, doesn't it?

 

[castleofargh]

  I don't get what you say here though: "a good deal of DAPs are objectively better. I doubt it's obviously audible though unless impedance starts changing the signature. in fact an iphone is objectively better nowadays. I believe portable audio to have nicely improved in the last years, with more and more stuff sounding reasonably transparent."
 
A good DAP should sound the same as another? And since the 0.5 Ohm imp of the Clip I don't get why others are better, other for the relatively weak amp.

well of course a good dap should sound the same as another. manufacturers might not all go for it. some because they just suck, others to comply with all the people who have the wrong idea and always somehow expect the most expensive stuff to sound different. as if a difference was the concrete evidence of improvement. in a world where we pretend that "better" is identical reproduction of a signal, it's quite the paradox.
to me all good products have to sound the same, if one doesn't then it's audibly faulty. not that I will always dislike it, but I wouldn't think it's a better anything, and certainly wouldn't dare to come claim it on headfi like so many people do.
and I do feel like we're slowly getting there, as cheap DAPs sound closer and closer to a real sound system. within the limitations of the amp section of course, even a cellphone can sound pretty nice under a particular load. they usually suck bad with low impedance stuff which is too bad as that's what people use them with. ^_^

 

 
a good deal of DAPs are objectively better. I doubt it's obviously audible though unless impedance starts changing the signature. in fact an iphone is objectively better nowadays. I believe portable audio to have nicely improved in the last years, with more and more stuff sounding reasonably transparent.
 
now for EQ capabilities, sadly no. unless you can rockbox the DAP or have an android DAP, I doubt you can get even remotely close. in fact I chose to hardcode some EQ because I find most of my DAP really not good enough in the EQ department(like my sony with no way to lower anything below 400hz...)
I guess looking for what DAP can be rockboxed would be the best way to go at it. I didn't see a DX50 rockboxed so I don't know what functions are available, maybe the dx90 can be too (didn't really follow the thread but I believe I've seen that written somewhere). I think I remember a ihifi could be rockboxed too. but you'll have to look for more information.
 
else if you get a nice sounding android DAP, installing viper4android on it opens a very wild range of crazy cool DSPs(real cool, I'm not talking surround laser cats, but really advanced tweakable stuff). I hate android in a DAP, but I often think about getting one just because of viper.

Thanks for this exhaustive answer. I definitely owe you a cognac for that! 

 
By "hardcoding EQ" you mean recoding audio files with an EQ profile targeted to a specific phone that you intend to use them with, I suppose. You must be très désespéré. 

 
Now for the real options... 

 
Rockbox'able DAP - yeah, thought about that. It would have to be able to drive full-size headphones like T1 or my old AKG K500 or my future planar phones. That would be DX90, I guess. I'm currently not ready to spend this kind of money on mere electronics, but it's certainly worth a closer look. I would like to get rid of stock Rockbox's rather limited Q-value range, though. (Too limited for some narrower treble peaks.) Maybe doable by editing and recompiling the source code. Something to be checked...
 
By "android DAP" you mean a real DAP rather than a smartphone? I never considered that. Since such stuff is not very wide spread compared to smartphones, I wonder if it would be easy to root, and if it would be supported by the Viper community. I suppose it would come with some nice stuff, like line out, but would lack network streaming capability on the other hand. Output impedance and power also to be checked...
 
I have a Note II lying around - no longer in use. Easy to root and run Viper on. Output power insufficient and no line out. Not a real option, but I have it available for experiments.
 
I'll have to think about it some more. For now clip zip does the job pretty good - with a little help from its friend, the FiiO E12. 

 

yes by hardcoded I mean encoding the EQ(and a little crossfeed) when I convert the albums to mp3 for a µSD. at the risk of making the pono's engineer sad, I'm willing to ruin many things if it gives me the exact FR I like.
and yes again, if it can't be rooted, android will not offer as much, and it would be useless for viper I believe.
my ideal solution when portability isn't really the issue, would be an android phone into a DAC/amp. I couldn't get viper through the usb off my crappy tablet, and only the usb audio pro app offers sound through USB on it. but the samsung S3 I had for the tour http://www.head-fi.org/t/726569/review-tour-somic-mh412-viper4android-the-put-up-or-shut-up-review-and-tour did output usb with viper settings. I wouldn't pretend the sound getting out of viper is free of distortions, but when you can get pretty much exactly the sound you want (if you can create impulse responses then you really can do anything with the convolver), it can in many instances be worth the small audio fidelity drop IMO.
if I wasn't such a grumpy old cat, I would do that, but I'm an android racist when it comes to DAPs. I like my buttons too much.
 

What has been upto this point in time the DAP that has shown the best measurements under and without load?

I have seen the dscopeiii readings of the fiio x3 and it seems remarkably good. Any other ones?

wihtout load it may possibly be the pono(at least for some measurements) that stuff can be impressive when plugged into nothing at all.
now plugged into a 16ohm IEM or below, I would very very much doubt that the pono could come on top. (maybe I'm wrong, but it would be the logical price to pay for their design choices).
 
I would suspect that the overall best results are obtained by the DAP with the best amp section. and that would also be the thing that gives best stability into a wider range of headphones. so the best measurement would probably be a DAP's LO + a great external amp, when measured at 16/32/300 ohm.
strangely enough you can find audio measurements for cellphones(mostly chinese websites), but it's much harder to find the same for DAPs.

that's the sorry world we live in. audiophiles are so deep in BS marketing that it has come to a point where cellphone users know more about audio specs than us. my "new" very favorite place for DAP measurements (sadly they have done very few yet) is the headphoniaks blog. they give exactly what I need, measurements into several loads. I hope they do a lot more in the future.