[Tubewin]

I prefer copper most of the time. Copper interconnects, power cables, headphone cables, usb, ethernet cables. I seem to “get away” with silver in the chain when it’s tubes. But copper all day everyday.

 

[castleofargh]

Hi folks,

I just started to step into world of IEM cable after playing around with IEMs for around 3 years. I wish to know is there a general trend for sound signature of cable material. So far my experience is pure copper gives rich and full sound signature but some time I find it to be full for silver cable too... Is there a general guideline? I am confused.

Short answer, no, a material does not have a sound signature. It just doesn't work that way.
Silver would be more of a catalyst in a way(not really, but I can't think of something else right now), it would bring the only impedance change in a perfect world where both cables are otherwise identical (yeah, right). But it would not determine on its own the profile or the magnitude of the resulting EQ. The impedance of the amplifier and often mainly that of the IEM would do that. In general, if the impedance curve of the IEM increases at higher frequency, then higher impedance cable will feel like it increases the treble (it will lower everything, but less reduction will be applied to the treble, making it feel louder relatively to the rest).
Now, on the contrary, if an IEM has an impedance curve that is elevated in the bass and low at higher frequencies, increasing the impedance of the cable (or amplifier) will subjectively boost the bass. The profile of the change is mostly driven by the profile of the IEM's impedance curve, not by silver and its made up "sound".

If you have real data and wish to have "fun", you can make some guesstimate using this:
Voltage at a given frequency=Voltage amp*(impedance of the IEM at that frequency) / (impedance of the IEM at that frequency + impedance of the source)
You do that for several frequencies (usually starting with the highest and lowest impedance values for the IEM). You calculate those for both cables and then for each frequency you go 20log(Voltage with silver/Voltage with copper)=difference in dB at that frequency.

I say guesstimate because amplifiers rarely have a dead flat impedance themselves, and it's a little tricky to know where to add the cable's impedance. Strictly speaking, it should be added to the impedance of the amplifier, as part of the source. But in practice, nobody is measuring IEMs' impedance without their cables, so we don't have the proper data, and we need to "make do". Or go measure everything ourselves, in which case, we don't need to calculate the values anymore .
I'm fun at parties.


Even before knowing all this about the voltage being the loudness at the transducer and that voltage changing depending on impedance ratios between load and source, we can strongly suspect that the metal's choice isn't going to be a big deal. The measured impedance of an IEM cable is typically much bigger than what the length and gauge of wire alone should give. Meaning, the metal used isn't the main cause of impedance inside the cable. Length, diameter, breading, insulating distance between the wires, soldering, and plugs are all having significant impact. Only after all that do you bring in the silver or copper dilemma and even less significant stuff that audiophiles adore, like the claimed 1337N purity of said metals. So thinking how silver gives us only about 7% improvement in conductivity on something that's only a small parameter for total cable impedance, while the cable itself is only a minor electrical part of the entire circuit. It would be strange if we did get huge impacts from swapping copper for silver. And it would be stranger yet if each metal had its own sound.
I think we have much more obvious rationals for where those beliefs came from. Silver sounds cold and gold sounds warmer? Wow, this is exactly as if people were describing the color of those metals, it must be entirely coincidental! ^_^


It's late... or early on Sunday, sorry in advance for the horrible English and probable math mistakes. No silver signature sound!

 

[Redcarmoose]

Per Dsnuts

• Silver for its highest transparency and stage enhancing.
• Gold for that rich tone and depth.
• Palladium for that remarkable imaging and detail.
• Copper for body and warmth.

This subject has been beaten to death here at Head-Fi, and frankly I don't know why I'm waisting my time in this thread?


But for those few who want to read on....................
Even Graphene holds a remarkable personality into which a slight alternative sound is found. Graphene holds less (treble) energy typically than what silver bestows onto the signal. Except normally Graphene (like silver) also expands soundstage. Yet with a darker, more note weighty and blacker background it has its uses and an unmistakable slight color. The end results here are that each material has it's own character to affect the signal.

The people that don't hear these changes are not wrong, they simply don't hear them. But to think that science knows everything and that everything can be tested is pure ridiculousness. Science all the time contradicts itself.

In fact cable believers are only that, they are only offering what they found to be true, to help the openminded to these possible changes. Multiple cable personality instances across the world are found to be consistent with outcomes. People are dedicating their entire life to this cause, and to question it is fine, but nothing is ever so black and white in the world.

 

[Lindholdt]

The people that don't hear these changes are not wrong, they simply don't hear them. But to think that science knows everything and that everything can be tested is pure ridiculousness. Science all the time contradicts itself.

I fully respect you opinion, and I'm not trying to be cheeky, but I'm interested in hearing you take on the following:

The people that hear these changes are not wrong, they do hear them. But to think that psychoacoustics isn't a huge part of the hobby and can effect everything is pure ridiculousness. Science all the time contradicts itself, but is correct most of the time, when done correctly and all aspects taken into consideration.

I do believe that people hear a difference between cables, I just think that they strongly underestimate the influence of their subconscious' effect on what they hear.
I believe that I you removed the visual sense when testing, far fewer people would be able to tell a noticable difference, if any.

Happy Sunday and do what it's all about, enjoy some great music

 

[Redcarmoose]

@Lindholdt,

If you were in a blue room and you personality disliked blue, the IEM in question would be better in a room color you liked.
The thing is once in a while cables will actually change slightly (in perception of their attributes) in time, meaning if you thought the cable was neutral....later with 6 months more experience with it, it may start to reveal itself to be more bright than neutral? We slowly get to know cables with more cable experiences under our belt and more time spent. Though, this perception of cables at times changes slightly, but will be very close to how they (the cable) has always been.

Pre expectation bias:
That expensive gold and shinny cable looks like high-end Audio?
The subconscious pre-expectation bias is totally a factor.

What happens with cable use is you start to understand the sonic changes put into use. Now those changes (of course) depend on DAP character, ear-tip makeup and design and how that individual ear-tip interfaces with the IEM and interconnectivity to your ear. And of course the inherent personality of the IEM reflecting the used cable attributes.

Your past IEM is more important than the one in your ear:
There are also multitudes of affects that result from prior IEM exposure. Meaning these changes can be partial or complete resulting in your prior brain audio memory resulting in variances of the perception of the current IEM in place.

But at 1:30 AM in the bar of your choice........if a blond in a bikini offered you a $3000 IEM right then, for free.......it may sound pretty good depending on how many beers you put away.

Still people all have individual sound preferences and we are simply trying to get further alignment. Think of it like getting performance tires on your car.

 

[Tiax]

This subject has been beaten to death here at Head-Fi, and frankly I don't know why I'm waisting my time in this thread?

Maybe just stop spreading this BS then?

Simple logic and basic facts vs pseudoscience and myths, it's been going on forever on head-fi

 

[Redcarmoose]

Maybe just stop spreading this BS then?

Simple logic and basic facts vs pseudoscience and myths, it's been going on forever on head-fi

Haha! “Spreading the BS”........this can be such a sadly emotional concept to be held by two fun loving headphone enthusiasts. Glad to read the argument is still in full force!

 

[Lindholdt]

The thing is often cables will actually change slightly in time, meaning if you thought the cable was neutral....later with 6 months more experience with it, it may start to reveal itself to be more bright than neutral? We slowly get to know cables with more cable experiences under our belt and more time spent.

How do you know that it's the cable that is changing, and not your perception of it, based on the prior experience's you've already had with the cable?

Again, my point is not that you don't hear a difference, I'm just questioning the reason why you hear a difference. I don't think it's down to the physical properties of a cable, I think it's because of prior experience/knowledge of physical things like Silver and Copper, that it being projected into our experience with an audio cable.
If you remove all prior experience's, knowledge and the visual sense, I think very few, if any, can hear a difference. I also think this is why the internet isn't filled with blind tests that proves theories like mine wrong. Because people CAN hear the difference, right up until the point where you remove all other inputs, than the hearing sense.
At least, that's my thoughts about it

 

[Redcarmoose]

How do you know that it's the cable that is changing, and not your perception of it, based on the prior experience's you've already had with the cable?

Again, my point is not that you don't hear a difference, I'm just questioning the reason why you hear a difference. I don't think it's down to the physical properties of a cable, I think it's because of prior experience/knowledge of physical things like Silver and Copper, that it being projected into our experience with an audio cable.
If you remove all prior experience's, knowledge and the visual sense, I think very few, if any, can hear a difference. I also think this is why the internet isn't filled with blind tests that proves theories like mine wrong. Because people CAN hear the difference, right up until the point where you remove all other inputs, than the hearing sense.
At least, that's my thoughts about it

I have a really simple answer to that question.

It simply comes from being in contact (with no prior communication) on the results of a cable. Meaning another listener with the exact same IEM perceived the same qualities in a different part of the world, without prior knowledge of your experience.

And you may wonder just how far the tiny details are in common? They are very involved and have to do with soundstage, midrange and vocal tone, and bass texture......amongst other things, I could go on.

So for the people into cables, often we are all experiencing the exact same effects. Even retailers will include a bass recessive cable like the ISN SC4 as an aftermarket cable at near $100 (extra) to try and align an IEM tone.

Cables have character and are freely talked about among enthusiasts, due to their performance enhancements. Literally every IEM made today has thought put into just what would be the best cable to dial in the sound with-in the perspective budget parameters.

 

[Lindholdt]

I have a really simple answer to that question.

It simply comes from being in contact (with no prior communication) on the results of a cable. Meaning another listener with the exact same IEM perceived the same qualities in a different part of the world, without prior knowledge of your experience.

So for the people into cables, often we are all experiencing the exact same effects. Even retailers will include a bass recessive cable like the ISN SC4 as an aftermarket cable at near $100 (extra) to try and align an IEM tone.

Cables have character and are freely talked about among enthusiasts, due to their performance enhancements. Literally every IEM made today has thought put into just what would be the best cable to dial in the sound.

But thats the thing, as soon as you know it is silver, your brain will color the sound in a certain way, based on prior experience or what you have read or heard. As soon as you know the brand, price or any other information of the cable, your brain changes what you hear, based on all of this. And it's all fine, I have no problem with that at all, and I understand that enthusiast's enjoy this part of the hobby, my main point is just that I believe psychoacoustics to be the reason this part of the hobby exists, not the physical properties of the cables.
Again, just my 2 cents.
Thank you for the respectful replies, and have a great Sunday

 

[Redcarmoose]

But thats the thing, as soon as you know it is silver, your brain will color the sound in a certain way, based on prior experience or what you have read or heard. As soon as you know the brand, price or any other information of the cable, your brain changes what you hear, based on all of this. And it's all fine, I have no problem with that at all, and I understand that enthusiast's enjoy this part of the hobby, my main point is just that I believe psychoacoustics to be the reason this part of the hobby exists, not the physical properties of the cables.
Again, just my 2 cents.
Thank you for the respectful replies, and have a great Sunday

You are not totally getting what I’m saying, it’s way deeper than that. You see many cables are mysteries as to what they change. This is really not a copper/silver argument. This could be the Vocal personality about a certain copper cable. The friend gets his in another part of the world, writes down what it does with his exact same IEM, and that information is parallel to your findings.

Anyways, I will read the thread and keep up with the posts in this thread but this is my final post regarding this subject. And it’s not that I’m not passionate about it, it’s just all this has already been discussed often here at Head-Fi.

Cheers!

 

[Lindholdt]

You are not totally getting what I’m saying, it’s way deeper than that. You see many cables are mysteries as to what they change. This is really not a copper/silver argument. This could be the Vocal personality about a certain copper cable. The friend gets his in another part of the world, writes down what it does with his exact same IEM, and that information is parallel to your findings.

Anyways, I will read the thread and keep up with the posts in this thread but this is my final post regarding this subject. And it’s not that I’m not passionate about it, it’s just all this has already been discussed often here at Head-Fi.

Cheers!

I do feel I understand what you are saying, but I just believe there is a reason to why to independent people from each side of the world can come to the same conclusion, other than an actual sound difference. In such case, it is very likely that they have been exposed to the same marketing material during their purchase, which will have an effect on what they hear. This enhances the chances of them arriving at similar conclusions a lot, in my opinion.
Again, remove all of this via blind testing, and I believe that very few, if any, can hear a difference.

 

[JosephHell83]

I do feel I understand what you are saying, but I just believe there is a reason to why to independent people from each side of the world can come to the same conclusion, other than an actual sound difference. In such case, it is very likely that they have been exposed to the same marketing material during their purchase, which will have an effect on what they hear. This enhances the chances of them arriving at similar conclusions a lot, in my opinion.
Again, remove all of this via blind testing, and I believe that very few, if any, can hear a difference.

Hehe it’s interesting why this discussion triggers audiophiles (including me to some extent). I started out in the hobby not really believing cables make a difference but over time as the quality and transparency of my system has improved I have become convinced it absolutely does make a noticeable difference (not huge but def clear).

Theoretically it could all be expectation bias but then I would ask myself: why don’t audio companies successfully sell eg a bucket of super expensive paint claiming that if you only paint your headphones in gold, silver or copper the sound signature will change. If just some audiophiles expect that to be true their expectation bias should impact their subjective experience and thus the audiophile company has just managed to create a new profitable product category. Why is this not the case if you theory is true? I challenge you (or anyone else) to create a totally new “BS audiophile product category” and see if you’r able to create true believers that are willing to pay for your product with their own money. Headphone paint is just an extreme example but I hope you get my point.

Just because you are not able to come up with a scientific theory for why cables should matter does not mean that you have therefor proven that it’s BS. There are many things in the world that we can’t explain scientifically (yet), it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a scientific explanation to be discovered in the future. We don’t have a proper explanation for what consciousness is - does that mean that consciousness doesn’t exist? We don’t fully understand how birds can navigate across the globe - does that mean that birds can’t navigate?

There are some really interesting scientific theories for why cables matter that I can recommend. Example from Wavetheory (who also happens to be an academic). Quite long but def worth watching if your actually interested in the topic.

Videos:
Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Part 4:

 

[Lindholdt]

Hehe it’s interesting why this discussion triggers audiophiles (including me to some extent). I started out in the hobby not really believing cables make a difference but over time as the quality and transparency of my system has improved I have become convinced it absolutely does make a noticeable difference (not huge but def clear).

Theoretically it could all be expectation bias but then I would ask myself: why don’t audio companies successfully sell eg a bucket of super expensive paint claiming that if you only paint your headphones in gold, silver or copper the sound signature will change. If just some audiophiles expect that to be true their expectation bias should impact their subjective experience and thus the audiophile company has just managed to create a new profitable product category. Why is this not the case if you theory is true? I challenge you (or anyone else) to create a totally new “BS audiophile product category” and see if you’r able to create true believers that are willing to pay for your product with their own money. Headphone paint is just an extreme example but I hope you get my point.

Just because you are not able to come up with a scientific theory for why cables should matter does not mean that you have therefor proven that it’s BS. There are many things in the world that we can’t explain scientifically (yet), it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a scientific explanation to be discovered in the future. We don’t have a proper explanation for what consciousness is - does that mean that consciousness doesn’t exist? We don’t fully understand how birds can navigate across the globe - does that mean that birds can’t navigate?

There are some really interesting scientific theories for why cables matter that I can recommend. Example from Wavetheory (who also happens to be an academic). Quite long but def worth watching if your actually interested in the topic.

Videos:

Yes it is a bit of a touchy subject, I think it's because both "sides" have strong opinions.
I would like to underline that I'm not saying that people do not hear a difference, I'm only saying that I think it's for other reasons than physical ones.

As to your question to why no one has made something similar, then I would argue that many have done so, and especially in the HiFi hobby, there is a lot of what some call snake oil.
Your example of paint is in my opinion a bit too extreme, and it is hard to come up with a reason to why it should make a difference.
However, with enough marketing efforts, I'm sure it could be done I mean, we have seen things far more silly than this, being sold as Audiophile accessories.

Regarding your challenge, I have a counter challenge for you, that is far more easy to conduct: Set up a proper blind test, record it and put it online to easily prove the difference between cables are audible, when all other factors than the cables themselves are taken out of the equation.

You are correct, just because something isn't proven by science, does not mean that it it not true. But if it is so certain that cables makes a difference, why haven't anyone proven this via blind test yet, after all of these years? YouTube should be full of videos showcase this, not videos of someone explaining why there potentially could be a reason for cables to make a difference in sound. It's so easy to prove, why not just do that instead?

Again, my opinion, feel free to disagree, but even better, prove me wrong. I actually really would love to be proven wrong, as I do love a nice cable for the feel and looks. If sound was a part of this as well, I have even more to do in this hobby

 

[WILLJS]

in some cases, manufacturer's use copper and silver in they're cables, they have a silver coating on the copper wire