[Soundstorm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali Best Soundcard of the year 2004. It is always better to quote the experts when an argument gets too long...

Of course, when you don't even read what they write in another article or the rest of it in that article, it makes you look pretty ignorant.

http://www.techreport.com/onearticle.x/7249

Quote:

After hearing the audio solutions presented back to back in one of our listening test sessions, I decided I just didn't care about hardware acceleration of 3D positional audio anymore. You can have those 10 frames per second back; just give me good, clean audio with decent mixing of streams, and I'm happier with that. At least the best cards based on VIA's Envy24HT chip, which utterly lacks hardware 3D acceleration capabilities, can meet that requirement reasonably well.

 

[wali]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundstorm Of course, when you don't even read what they write in another article or the rest of it in that article, it makes you look pretty ignorant. http://www.techreport.com/onearticle.x/7249

I clearly marked this sentence: Although it's trendy for enthusiasts to bash Creative, and we've certainly led the charge in that regard in my original post.

Nice reply for the first post - n00b!

 

[Soundstorm]

MoSXS is an example of a typical Creative fanboy defending Creative. Have you actually seen the reviews of A2/A2ZS vs Envy24 cards? Every single review prefers the Envy24 sound quality over the Sound Manglers. That is a fact.

IXBT/Digit-Life's reviewer, Maxim Liadov which uses a LynxTWO as the reference card wrote this about A2 ZS.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...-zs/index.html

Quote:

Contras * Unclear 24-bit support by the existing drivers; * Questionable SNR improvement; * Not fully embodied DAC potential (related to the entire Audigy2/ZS family); * Bitwise transfer via digital output not supported;

Techreport notes this of A2.

http://www.techreport.com/reviews/20...v/index.x?pg=8

Quote:

The Audigy2, however, is easier to pick out of a crowd because it tends to favor foreground vocals at the expense of percussion and background instruments.

Just so you all know, the A2/A2ZS/Live 24bit all use the same Cirrus Logic DAC, CS4382. This is a 114dB DAC, it should sound good since it's the flagship multichannel DAC from Cirrus Logic. How did Creative totally mess up the sound quality of a 114dB DAC, only they know.

Audigy LS and Live 24bit doesn't even use the same DAC, talk about ignorance. LS uses a Wolfson WM8746 6 channel DAC. L24bit having the same DAC as the A2/A2ZS gives it basically the same sonic signature of the bigger brothers. The analog output stages are poor, my AV-710 in high sample mode is easily better sounding than the L24bit. Once again I want to stress, the A2/ZS/L24 has a very good DAC(feel free to look up the specs of the CS4382), but their analog output stage is really bad that it makes Envy24 cards with lesser spec DAC sound much better.

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...son+Clan&hl=en

richx, which is a forumer here on head-fi wrote a pretty good comparison of the AV-710 vs Audigy LS. He still prefers the AV-710 over the LS.

My weapon of choice when comparing the AV-710 which I own and the Live 24bit is the Acoustic Energy Aego2 speakers. Tried stuff like Emi Fujita's Camomile and Camomile Blend, Best Audiophile Voices I & II on it, it wasn't much of a contest. The AV-710 is just simply better than the L24bit, period.

L24bit has the same sound signature that most head-fiers here use to describe the A2/A2ZS, muddy, veiled like there was a curtain draped over it.

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showp...20&postcount=6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer I'll give you that A2s don't sound as bad as the A1 or the old SBLive!, but compared to even the mere Chaintech or other Envy24 based cards, like your own, Paul, the shortcomings are clearly audbile. It is like putting thick drapes between youself and the music, just like what I hear with Realtek ALC650 onboard sound chips, or your typical $10 "5.1 surround" card. Boring, flat lifeless sound, whereas the SBLive! could only be described as terrible sound. So the A2 is not the bottom of the barrel, but close enough, expecially when there are so many better options out there. There is certainly nothing hi-fi or audiophile about the Audigy2 (or its' many permetuations).

Just recently I had the oppourtunity to listen to the 0404 on the Aego2, and it was quite an eyeopener, I couldn't believe an EMU soundcard can actually sound so good......

EMU got something right there with the 0404. It was so unlike any Sound Mangler that I've heard, one actually wonders how the same company can have such different sounding products.....

 

[MoSXS]

Quote:

Your gear is: Audigy2 + Sony V700/Audio Technica A500. You are happy with that, so be it.

I have an Audigy 2? Really? When did I say that? I don't recall saying I owned an Audigy 2. And I certainly don't remember going to the store and buying one. This is news for me. Since you searched for my previous posts, you should have read a little more and saw what source I do use.

Quote:

Now, many people in this site have better ears, more experience, better sensibility and more good sense than you. For them Audigy2 is average for music. I stand by it.

Oh, resorting to personal attacks? Thats very mature. That just shows that your entire argument is flawed and baseless. When you point out someone's "shortcomings" in a debate, that shows your own lack of argument. Now come, why not come up with some real facts to back your arguement? Your wannabe haiku is not impressing anyone either. Infact, its rather childish.

Quote:

Since you argue, argue , and cannot see it... Go in peace. Some people when they try better. see the ligth In your case, i dont think is possible.

So.. you basically just admitted defeat. You didn't even try and dispute anything I said. All you did was personally attack me and say I won't be able to "see the light".

Quote:

And I really, really hate the constant A2 bashing. Granted, Live does have its problems, but that card is like what? Seven years old?

And its using a DSP thats even older than that. Yet people still seem to bash it as if it was brand new and Creative was pushing it as their top of the line card.

Quote:

P.S How many 0404 users here can hear a difference between 44->48 khz resampling using foobar? I can't even though I can hear definite difference with the Oehlbach replacement cable and stock for the Senn hd580s.

THank you! At least someone has some sense.

44kHz to 48kHz resampling is even more placebo nonsense. Sure, it affects DTS pass-thru. But who can really tell the difference?

This makes me wonder something. I bet if you were to playback a file at 48kHz and tell some of the people in this debate that it was 44kHz, then play a 44kHz file at 48kHz and tell them it was resampled, they would say the first file sounded better. Infact, I would bet good money on that.

Quote:

People who cannot tell the difference between the audigy cards and av710 proabably just do not have very good hearing I must say.

Or maybe some people prefer lively sound instead of flat, dead sound? Thats always a possibility you know. I'm not the only one who feels that way. A lot of people at this forum feel that way too. Of course, when someone voices their disgust with the AV-710, their equipment or hearing is blamed. Its never the fact that card might sound BAD. Its THEIR fault. This seriously reminds me of 2000/2001 all over again. When the Live was *the card* before the Audigy came out. Everyone said *everything* was better than the Live just because. Even when a lot of the cards, like the MUSE, sounded like trash.

Quote:

"We still prefer Envy24-based solutions for non-gaming applications" It is always better to read the entire thing even if you are going to quote a report. I guarantee you that head-fi as a whole knows quite a bit more, and looks deeper into these soundcards then a churned out "top list".

Even though the Envy24 based cards can't really do as much as the Audigy 2.

Quote:

MoSXS is an example of a typical Creative fanboy defending Creative. Have you actually seen the reviews of A2/A2ZS vs Envy24 cards? Every single review prefers the Envy24 sound quality over the Sound Manglers. That is a fact.

I've done better. I've actually used the AV-710 very extensively. I know someone who has it. So basically, I can call them anytime I want and just go over to their house and have a listen. I was thinking about doing that this weekend maybe.

Anyway, a review is just a single person's opinion. I haven't trusted reviews since videogame reviews gave Zelda for the N64 a perfect 10. I trust MYSELF and what *I* like and hear/enjoy.

On top of that, I have already linked to previous opinions stating that Envy24 based cards are only better than the Live! with great nitpicking.

Not to mention, a lot of work and extra, costly equipment.

Quote:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2...2-zs/index.html Contras * Unclear 24-bit support by the existing drivers; * Questionable SNR improvement; * Not fully embodied DAC potential (related to the entire Audigy2/ZS family); * Bitwise transfer via digital output not supported;

You're quoting an article thats over a year old AND used first generation drivers? This is January 6th 2005, not September 30 2003. Infact, there was a driver update for the Audigy 2 ZS just two months later. And there have been two since. Nice try. Not to mention that entire article seems to be determined to show the flaws in the Audigy 2.

Don't forget to copy the pros next time.

And.. sorry, but I think any sensible person isn't going to take an article seriously that uses the word "Contras". Not all of us care about obscure 80s videogame references.

Quote:

Audigy LS and Live 24bit doesn't even use the same DAC, talk about ignorance. LS uses a Wolfson WM8746 6 channel DAC.

Well, if you want to tell the guys over at the kX project that their wrong, feel free to do so. Thats where I got my information from.

Quote:

The analog output stages are poor, my AV-710 in high sample mode is easily better sounding than the L24bit. Once again I want to stress, the A2/ZS/L24 has a very good DAC(feel free to look up the specs of the CS4382), but their analog output stage is really bad that it makes Envy24 cards with lesser spec DAC sound much better.

In your opinion it makes the Envy24 card sound better. But with all of the senseless Creative hating over the years, with a lot of reviewers going so far as to say that garbage cards that sound worse than onboard AC'97 sound better than the Live, the Chaitech "sounding better" than the Audigy is hardly a "fact". Thats just your opinion

Anyway, all of this Creative bashing and comparing the Audigy 2 to the EMU 0404 is nonsense. Both cards are designed for entirely different purposes and markets. Its exactly as I said before. Its just like comparing a sports car to an SUV. Both can have similar functions, but in the end, they are designed for entirely different purposes and markets.

The EMU is designed specifically for music creation and recording. Therefore it is better at those tasks.

The Audigy 2 is designed to be an all in one entertainment system that takes the place of an A/V receiver in a multimedia speaker system. It can decode Dolby Digital and DTS signals from DVDs. It can play games better than anyone else. It can even upmix MP3s and other two channel sources (CDs, TV Tuner) to 7.1 sound.

The EMU can create music. The Audigy 2 can be an entertainment center. Thats what each card is designed for, and that is what each card excels at. If you expect the Audigy 2 to be the same as the EMU just because it is in the same price range, then you are seriously mistaken and looking at things in a very wrong way.

 

[Soundstorm]

I feel sorry for those that need to defend Creative. Just wait for the 3DSoundsurge review of the A4P, where the reviewer will expose all the flaws of the A2/A2ZS series.

Drivers can't fix the fundamental flaws of the A2 series, MoSXS. Just see what Glassman did in modding the A2 to get decent sound.

It's not just my opinion, I can tell you anyone here on head-fi would have owned a Creative card at one point of time and eventually dumped them for better soundcards eventually. That is a fact.

If you can't hear the difference, then I feel sorry for you. Back to enjoying good sound that isn't mangled by a Sound Mangler.

 

[Soundstorm]

http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/120/10/

Quote:

I still can't recommend the Audigy2 ZS to audiophiles, however. It has exceptional but not audiophile-grade sound, no matter what Creative PR might tell you. There is still some question if it is truly performing at 24-bit standards or not. It would do a world of good for Creative to ditch the emu10K and upgrade to a fully 24-bit DSP. In addition, for recording musicians it would be wise to look for something a little more professional.

Quote:

I'm not going to give Creative's Audigy2 ZS an Editor's Choice. Why, you ask? What's the point? There's the ZS, and then there's everything else. You wouldn't give a rhinoceros an Editor's Choice for being a rhinoceros.

 

[MoSXS]

Quote:

I feel sorry for those that need to defend Creative. Just wait for the 3DSoundsurge review of the A4P, where the reviewer will expose all the flaws of the A2/A2ZS series.

3DSS? When was the last time they actually reviewed something? How many years ago?

I feel sorry for those who can't admit the truth. The truth being that Creative cards aren't even 1/10th as bad as people make them out to be, and that some cheap $25 card that requires extra equipment and hours of software configuration is NOT better.

Quote:

Drivers can't fix the fundamental flaws of the A2 series, MoSXS. Just see what Glassman did in modding the A2 to get decent sound.

What was that one word? Placebo? Oh yeah. Thats it. Here you go http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=placebo Yes, drivers can fix and change many things. Many things can be changed and controlled via software. Look at videocard drivers. Good drivers can boost the performance of the card by about 50% over its lifetime. The same can be applied to soundcards.

Quote:

It's not just my opinion, I can tell you anyone here on head-fi would have owned a Creative card at one point of time and eventually dumped them for better soundcards eventually. That is a fact.

Judging from this thread, and many others, a lot of people STILL own Creative cards and they still use them as their primary source.

Quote:

If you can't hear the difference, then I feel sorry for you.

I can hear the difference between a Chaintech and an Audigy. The Chaintech is dead, flat, and lifeless. But clear and detailed. Just.. theres no life to the sound.

On the other hand, the Audigy 2 is full of life and fun to listen to. The music has impact and depth. It's equally as detailed as the Chaintech. You also don't have to buy extra equipment to get it to sound good, and you don't have to spend several DAYS configuring a piece of software to help make it sound good. The Audigy 2 sounds great out of the box with any music player. The Chaintech requires costly extra hardware and too much software configuration. Lets not forget how buggy the Chaintech drivers are either.

Quote:

Back to enjoying good sound that isn't mangled by a Sound Mangler.

Enjoy your lifeless sound. Those of us who want impact, depth, detail, and fun can look to superior products that don't require us to spend extra money and hours of our time configuring software.

You go enjoy your flat sound, while I'll go listen to a SACD.

Quote:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/120/10/

The same Guru3d That praised the MUSE XL? http://www.guru3d.com/review/guillemot/musexl/ They put that card on the same level as the Audigy. Now, I can tell you from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that the card is TERRIBLE. Everything is muffled, distorted, and just difficult to listen to. It basically sounds like one of the Sony DNE-510 CD players with a $20 pair of V150's and an extra layer of distortion thrown in for fun. I'm seriously not joking. The card sounds THAT bad.

But they put it on the same level as the Audigy. Why? Simple. Because Creative bashing is the trendy thing to do and it keeps you "cool" with all of the "audiophiles" and "know it alls".

 

[Soundstorm]

MoSXS, someone that can't accept the truth and fact there's actually better soundcards than a Creative and only costs $25.

So I'm guessing those that use Benchmark DAC-1, Bel Canto DAC-2 which cost 10x the ZS price are idiots, because the ZS has "lively" sound.

Ditto with those that buy Meridian, expensive headphone amps, etc, because the ZS is clearly superior to those.

Music producers that buy stuff like Apogee, RME, LynxStudios etc are stupid too I guess. I mean, the ZS is so good, it's superior to any other products.

http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/

Quote:

Up first in the next few days will be a review of the Sound Blaster Audigy 4 Pro!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoSXS On the other hand, the Audigy 2 is full of life and fun to listen to. The music has impact and depth.

Try looking up the term coloured, colouration etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoSXS Enjoy your lifeless sound. Those of us who want impact, depth, detail, and fun can look to superior products that don't require us to spend extra money and hours of our time configuring software. You go enjoy your flat sound, while I'll go listen to a SACD.

Guess what? EMU0404 has all of that, but much, much better than a ZS. Try listening to 1 someday.

AV-710 isn't hard to configure. There's Mr. Radar's guide which simplifies everything. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Remember folks, MoSXS' Creative cards are superior to everyone else's 0404 and 1212M, Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1/7.1LT, M-Audio Revolution 7.1/5.1, ESI Juli@, etc.

They may still be using the Creatives, but certainly not as source for music listening. But if you like the dull, lifeless sound of a Creative, go ahead. Everyone else here calls them those, but only you seem to have an agenda of some sorts in calling the AV-710 dull, lifeless.

 

[MoSXS]

Quote:

MoSXS, someone that can't accept the truth and fact there's actually better soundcards than a Creative and only costs $25.

Soundstorm, someone that can't accept the fact that they lost the argument, and now they're saying outrageous things to try and make a comeback.

A soundcard thats better than Creative and it only costs $25? What soundcard is it? It sure isn't the AV-710! Of course, when you factor in the cost of a headphone amp, or other form of amp/receiver to drive the headphones, the cost becomes significantly more than $25. With the AV-710, extra hardware is REQUIRED to make the card sound good. Unless you mod the card (switch jumpers) to have a stronger front speaker output. But then you're using the low quality DAC and it sounds significantly worse than an Audigy.

Good deal!

Quote:

So I'm guessing those that use Benchmark DAC-1, Bel Canto DAC-2 which cost 10x the ZS price are idiots, because the ZS has "lively" sound. Ditto with those that buy Meridian, expensive headphone amps, etc, because the ZS is clearly superior to those. Music producers that buy stuff like Apogee, RME, LynxStudios etc are stupid too I guess. I mean, the ZS is so good, it's superior to any other products.

Now where did you get that from? Why did you even mention such equipment? They have no place in this debate. The AV-710 and Audigy don't even begin to compare to any of those and I never made any reference, or comparison to any of them. Don't try and bring up other equipment that was never mention, or has any place in this debate. Its not going to work, and you're certainly going to fail at trying to make me look like a fool by mentioning them. Face it, you have nothing left to say and you can't back up your claims at all. Just admit it already.

Quote:

Try looking up the term coloured, colouration etc.

Look up "enjoyment". Then look up "contradiction" and think about how "enjoyment" and "AV-710" can be described.

Quote:

Guess what? EMU0404 has all of that, but much, much better than a ZS. Try listening to 1 someday.

Guess what? The EMU0404 is an entirely different product than the ZS. They both have very different purposes. Comparing them as if they are the same is as ridiculous as comparing a Ford Excursion to a Honda Civic. They're very different and do very different things.

Quote:

AV-710 isn't hard to configure. There's Mr. Radar's guide which simplifies everything. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

It's more trouble than its worth. I should be able to buy equipment, connect, set equalizer if I choose, then play. Not have to change jumpers, download buggy drivers, download extra software, learn new software, buy extra hardware....

An AV-710 costs about $30 shipped with taxes, depending on where you live. Then another $70+ for a decent headphone amp (Headsave Go-Vibe). So.. you end up spending about the same as you would on an Audigy. THEN you have to go through the trouble of configuring the software, dealing with buggy drivers, etc. Not only that, you're STUCK with Foobar. You can't use better software like iTunes. If you use iTunes, you won't get the "best" sound quality. What a good deal the AV-710 is

Quote:

Remember folks, MoSXS' Creative cards are superior to everyone else's 0404 and 1212M, Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1/7.1LT, M-Audio Revolution 7.1/5.1, ESI Juli@, etc.

Where did I say that? I never said the Audigy was better than the Emu cards. Don't make things up, just because you lost and can't come up with anything else to debate.

As far as the Envy 24 cards go.. Well, the Revolution is nice, but overrated. Would have been even nice if M-Audio had actually delivered on their promises (like DVD-Audio). However, the M-Audio was supposed to be the "audiophile alternative" to Creative's multimedia cards. It fell flat in that respect. But I would rate the Revolution on the same level, or above the Audigy all around, just because it can deliver 24-bit/192kHz to all channels. And, unlike the Chaintech, it doesn't require hours of time to configure or extra, expensive hardware.

Quote:

They may still be using the Creatives, but certainly not as source for music listening. But if you like the dull, lifeless sound of a Creative, go ahead. Everyone else here calls them those, but only you seem to have an agenda of some sorts in calling the AV-710 dull, lifeless.

Dull lifeless sound of Creative? Yup, typical anti-Creative fanboy who lost and has nothing else to say. Don't get an Creative card confused with your Chaintech.

By the way, if you read this forum (and even this thread) more, you would see that many other people have called the Chaintech dull and lifeless as well. I'm not the only one who believes, and knows, that the card is severely lacking in overall depth.

 

[housecat]

Quote:

Never ever compare game audio with music. Game audio is highly compressed and more focused on positional 3D audio rather than 'fidelity'. Audigy2 beats every other card in gaming for a simple reason--it processes the audio in its own audio chip rather than taking CPU resources. Audigy2 also has EAX which is a must for video games these days (environmental ambiance and 3D positional audio)..

Quote from wali.


Sorry but I could not stand this comment.

First we should start with some basic anti-creative literature: http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?threadid=76742 for good measure.

OK. Now I HATE it that every Creative-defender across the net thinks that the CPU usage is a selling point anymore.

Firstly, EAX has NOTHING to do with positional audio.. its environmental only. So if you are hoping it will help your CS game.. it won't. In fact, it could only distract you from the sounds your supposed to be listening for.

So if you are a professional (or aspire to be), and know about technology, you'll disable it.
Its for teenage goons only who saw the ad in PC Gamer. Sorry I'm so mean.

Last time I checked, the current bottleneck in gaming performance was not the CPU. In the age of Athlon 64/FX processors we are worried about a maximum of 10fps loss?
And at higher resolution (maybe some AA/AF as well) when the CPU plays nearly NO PART AT ALL, its absolutely zero difference between CPU audio and hardware assisted.
You will see 0fps improvement. Unless you are on a Pentium2 still.

It should go without saying all serious gamers use good processors and high resolution graphics (1280x1024 or 1600x1200), which is the point where you will see very little FPS increase. It can vary depending on the game engine, but as you increase resolution the GPU becomes the bottleneck, not the 'strenuous sound processing'.. /sarcasm
And in cases where the CPU IS the limiting factor (some modern games and very low resolution; 640x480,800x600), you get beyond 100+FPS anyway.
Whether you get 110 with an Audigy or 100 with a M-Audio makes no difference.


The bottom line is: if you feel yourself to be a hardcore gamer, and your gaming rig is brought to its knees from your game sound processing.. your rig probably isnt as hardcore as you think it is.

It will not, and should not affect your game. In fact, you will benefit more in going to a better QUALITY sound card.

NOT a better marketed soundcard (Creative).


A bit of education: 3d positioning is done COMPELTELY by Direct Sound3D, EAX from the beginning was a environmental effect add-on.
The 2/3/4 versions ect and so on, are to add additional effects, additional effects in multiple parts of a map, overlapping effects ect.

Essentially, crap that a casual gamer *might* think is cool.. until he turns it off.. but most never do because they dont even understand the technology and what its doing..

they just think they MUST have EAX to be the best they can in Counterstrike.. because the PC Gamer ad told them so.


Now, about me.. I am not an audiophile, I dont pretend to be. But I DO understand BASIC technology like I outlined in this post, and that Creative has a lot of sheep.

That all said, I dont begrudge the guy who wants a Sound Blaster.. fine enjoy.
But dont tell me that its superior in games, because its not.

Now A3D, THAT was a great positional audio algorithm.
Positioning these days is entirely done by DirectSound3D.

To sum it all up: graphic acceleration is still THE bottleneck, CPUs are not, audio acceleration is not.
And if audio acceleration is the "killer point" to using Sound Blasters for games, then Creative's strangehold on the gaming market based on false premise.

Thank you.

 

[Soundstorm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoSXS Soundstorm, someone that can't accept the fact that they lost the argument, and now they're saying outrageous things to try and make a comeback. A soundcard thats better than Creative and it only costs $25? What soundcard is it? It sure isn't the AV-710! Of course, when you factor in the cost of a headphone amp, or other form of amp/receiver to drive the headphones, the cost becomes significantly more than $25. With the AV-710, extra hardware is REQUIRED to make the card sound good. Unless you mod the card (switch jumpers) to have a stronger front speaker output. But then you're using the low quality DAC and it sounds significantly worse than an Audigy. Good deal! Now where did you get that from? Why did you even mention such equipment? They have no place in this debate. The AV-710 and Audigy don't even begin to compare to any of those and I never made any reference, or comparison to any of them. Don't try and bring up other equipment that was never mention, or has any place in this debate. Its not going to work, and you're certainly going to fail at trying to make me look like a fool by mentioning them. Face it, you have nothing left to say and you can't back up your claims at all. Just admit it already. Look up "enjoyment". Then look up "contradiction" and think about how "enjoyment" and "AV-710" can be described. Guess what? The EMU0404 is an entirely different product than the ZS. They both have very different purposes. Comparing them as if they are the same is as ridiculous as comparing a Ford Excursion to a Honda Civic. They're very different and do very different things. It's more trouble than its worth. I should be able to buy equipment, connect, set equalizer if I choose, then play. Not have to change jumpers, download buggy drivers, download extra software, learn new software, buy extra hardware.... An AV-710 costs about $30 shipped with taxes, depending on where you live. Then another $70+ for a decent headphone amp (Headsave Go-Vibe). So.. you end up spending about the same as you would on an Audigy. THEN you have to go through the trouble of configuring the software, dealing with buggy drivers, etc. Not only that, you're STUCK with Foobar. You can't use better software like iTunes. If you use iTunes, you won't get the "best" sound quality. What a good deal the AV-710 is Where did I say that? I never said the Audigy was better than the Emu cards. Don't make things up, just because you lost and can't come up with anything else to debate. As far as the Envy 24 cards go.. Well, the Revolution is nice, but overrated. Would have been even nice if M-Audio had actually delivered on their promises (like DVD-Audio). However, the M-Audio was supposed to be the "audiophile alternative" to Creative's multimedia cards. It fell flat in that respect. But I would rate the Revolution on the same level, or above the Audigy all around, just because it can deliver 24-bit/192kHz to all channels. And, unlike the Chaintech, it doesn't require hours of time to configure or extra, expensive hardware. Dull lifeless sound of Creative? Yup, typical anti-Creative fanboy who lost and has nothing else to say. Don't get an Creative card confused with your Chaintech. By the way, if you read this forum (and even this thread) more, you would see that many other people have called the Chaintech dull and lifeless as well. I'm not the only one who believes, and knows, that the card is severely lacking in overall depth.

Why would I have lost the argument? The rest of the head-fiers here don't even use a Creative for music. Of course, that doesn't get through your thick skull I guess.

Buggy drivers? You're talking about Creative, known to have damn buggy, bloated drivers. Pot calling kettle black. I invite everyone here to see 3dss Audigy forums.

Obviously you didn't see Iron Dreamer's quote or just ignore what everyone else writes about the ZS. Please continue to delude yourself, it's quite amusing.

http://www.3dss-forums.com/cgi-bin/w...=all&fpart=all

Looky here, a tweak guide for A1/A2. Who would have thought of that.

Not only that, please view the rest of the Audigy forum at 3dss. Quite amusing to say the least.

http://www.3dss-forums.com/cgi-bin/w...c=1#Post104303

You can't even get the A2/A2ZS to playback 24bit properly without jumping through many configuration hoops either. And you think the AV-710 configuration is hard?

 

[Guust-Fi]

If your into games just buy an Audigy 2 ZS. If you listen to music buy an emu. If you do both, buy both. It will cost you 180€ in total. End of discussion.

 

[Soundstorm]

This reminds me of the funny dialog at the start of the Bose FAQ.

http://home.earthlink.net/~busenitz/bs.html

I present to all, the Creative version of it.

Newbie: Does anyone have any opinions about Creative?
Five Responses: There are better soundcard for the money including brands X, Y, and Z.
Creative Defender: But Creative soundcards offer superior EAX gaming blah blah. They're the most popular soundcard in the world, and for good reason.
Ten Responses: Popularity does not equal quality. (Many long detailed rebuttals to the Creative defender. Tone tends to be slightly hostile since they've done this several times before. Some are very hostile --- "Creative sucks!!!")
Creative Defender: No. You're all wrong.
Fifteen Responses: What?! (Many more long posts explaining again why they are right)
Creative Defender: (not in response to anything in particular) But Creative is a large corporation with excellent customer service. Other smaller companies may fail, leaving you without service.(of course, this is probably not true, Creative has terrible customer service and tech support)
Twenty Responses: Good service for a poor quality product? So what? (Many more detailed responses about the problems they perceive with Creative, plus more "Creative sucks!!!" posts)
Creative Defender: Creative is a very popular soundcard. More people buy Creative soundcards than any other soundcards, and Creative has very high customer satisfaction rates.(again, not true, as any ex-Creative user will know)
Twenty-five Responses: Agggh!! We just explained that quality does not equal popularity. Can't you read? Are you an IDIOT?
Creative Defender: No. I'm not the idiot, you're all idiots. This forum is populated by a small clique of crazy "audiophile" types who spend hundreds of dollars for cable that doesn't even make a difference.
Newbie: (forgot about the newbie didn't you!) (in a weak voice) I want my mommy.

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali Nice reply for the first post - n00b!

Nice, good going. It might be wise from calling someone a noob around here, especially coming from someone who joined in late 2003

 

[tiberian]

*yawn*
this thread is stupid.