[plainsong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, I agree. I feel sorry for Cho Seung-Hui because he was obviously living in a hell of hate and depression. A remarkably terrible place to be. It's inconvieveable that he was overlooked and not helped. He wasn't a thrill killer who performed murder again and again for pleasure. His killings were an explosion - an exit in rage. He was sick and crazy. He should have been helped.

I agree 100% - which we all know doesn't happen often.

What I don't agree with here is the attitude that we should have a media blackout on anything that sheds light on his motivations as he saw them. It's a knee-jerk reaction that sounds noble enough, but only on the surface. Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. This kind of self-imposed censorship is bad path to start walking down. Who decides what should and should not be available? You always have the choice to not participate in it yourself, but understanding more about the events leading up to such a crime goes to preventing it in the future, not encouraging it.

Now of course the media is generally tastless, but that's because we're going through this cycle of yellow journalism. That has to eventually cave in on itself, but when you filter through that, to censor information that would help a society learn how to prevent these things in the future is a Bad.Idea.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, I think to regard him as "mentally dumb" or as some kind of an invalid is remarkably immature. I don't know enough about him to make any sort of conclusion other than that he was a deeply troubled person, whether caused by himself or others I could not possibly say.

Meh, I would say that it isn't immature though it's probably a leap caused by the hate that people feel for him. He did seem to have a remarkable inability to express himself in a coherent and cognizant manner which is rather striking in an English major. I have a feeling this probably led to internalization and a building of rage which might not have happened if he were better able to express himself.

You could argue that his ability to keep himself from being dragged down by someone while he was committing his acts show some above average mental abilities but if you look into the Port Arthur Massacre you'll find that a gentleman who was mentally impaired enough that he was collecting a pension based on his lack of intelligence was able to perform the same feat. Of course that spree killing has a lot of fishy angles to it.

The only thing I've seen so far which suggest that he had unusual abilities is one of his instructors commenting that he was gifted in some ways but that might be the typical instructor's rose colored glasses. In the end, I have to agree with you. Given the incredibly poor communication skills it's likely that no one will ever know what his true abilities were...

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's inconvieveable that he was overlooked and not helped. He wasn't a thrill killer who performed murder again and again for pleasure. His killings were an explosion - an exit in rage. He was sick and crazy. He should have been helped.

It seems from the quotes I've seen that some were trying to reach out to him. I don't think it's fair to say he was overlooked and I think people were trying to help him. Individual tutoring, etc. All the same, it doesn't appear they succeeded but without knowing more than we ever will, it's hard to say if better results could have been obtained.

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, I think to regard him as "mentally dumb" or as some kind of an invalid is remarkably immature. I don't know enough about him to make any sort of conclusion other than that he was a deeply troubled person, whether caused by himself or others I could not possibly say.

He clearly was mentally dumb. Note that I didn't say "learning disabled" because it wasn't likely a learning disability. Based on most of the medical commentary in the news--especially this morning since the videos and manifesto pages have been aired--it turns out that Cho was most likely a paranoid schizophrenic, and one of the characteristics of schizophrenia is that one's mental and emotional development is arrested at around the age where schizophrenia blossoms. This excellent analysis, for instance, suggests that his mental development was arrested around age 15 or 16:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/VATech/...3050483&page=1

What's sad in this story is that people just assumed it was clinical depression, where all the signs pointed much more strongly to schizophrenia (taking pictures of people everywhere for no reason, pretending to have alternate personalities, denying elements of reality, the stalking, the bizarre use of religious iconography, the comment that the "saw promiscuity in the eyes" of one of the girls he was stalking, etc.). People just aren't aware of the signs of schizophrenia.

 

[deathklok]

To claim that overall mental development is arrested by schizophrenia is ludicrous. Or are you going to tell me that John Nash is also mentally dumb? Emotionally arrested, yes, but clearly something that can be aided with medication and therapy.

And it is disheartening that society still discounts violent schizophrenia as severe depression. Clearly the mental hospital he was temporarily committed to was either short on resources or downright incompetent to miss this diagnosis. The fact that he seemed to have planned this for so long, and known for so long that it was the end result, makes it seem that there should've been many warning signs that a properly trained and educated person (I would hope there are at least a few of those at a state mental hospital) should've picked up on.

 

[GlorytheWiz825]

This guy is getting the publicity he wanted. It's a terrible shame that more will remember him than his victims.

His mind was so twisted and full of hatred. I wonder what anyone could have done to cast away the violence and hate in his heart.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlorytheWiz825 /img/forum/go_quote.gif His mind was so twisted and full of hatred. I wonder what anyone could have done to cast away the violence and hate in his heart.

His solution for his problem at the end seemed pretty effective...

 

[marvin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok The fact that he seemed to have planned this for so long, and known for so long that it was the end result, makes it seem that there should've been many warning signs that a properly trained and educated person (I would hope there are at least a few of those at a state mental hospital) should've picked up on.

Doubt it.

Lots of people with mental health issues are quite capable of looking sane when necessary. You only catch the real kooks that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpalmer /img/forum/go_quote.gif His solution for his problem at the end seemed pretty effective...

Too bad someone didn't do it sooner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by msnbc.com Cho's great-aunt, Kim Yang-soon, described Cho as "very cold" and said her niece was constantly worried about him, according to a translation from the AP. "Every time I called and asked how he was, she would say she was worried about him," Kim said from her home in South Korea. "Who would have known he would cause such trouble, the idiot."

Hmm, looks like he's not getting the "but he was such a nice guy!" treatment from his family.

 

[Pm@c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif It shouldn't. Cho received a Temporary Detention Order in December 2005. He was then voluntarily admitted into a mental institution, where the doctor declared that he was not mentally defective, just depressed. At that point, he was released. He also had restraining orders placed on him at this time, but those had expired when he purchased the guns. The NICS check does not cover this. If Cho had been ruled mentally defective, or if he had been involuntarily placed into a mental institution, then the NICS check would have denied his purchases. Also, if he had an active restraining order against him, the NICS check would have also denied his purchases. It is done this way for very good reason.

why would they allow people with any sort of mental illness, such as depression, access to firearms.

 

[cotdt]

Looks like Cho already has an admirer:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18203613/

36 schools already closed down in my state.

 

[sorrick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY /img/forum/go_quote.gif He clearly was mentally dumb. Note that I didn't say "learning disabled" because it wasn't likely a learning disability. Based on most of the medical commentary in the news--especially this morning since the videos and manifesto pages have been aired--it turns out that Cho was most likely a paranoid schizophrenic, and one of the characteristics of schizophrenia is that one's mental and emotional development is arrested at around the age where schizophrenia blossoms. This excellent analysis, for instance, suggests that his mental development was arrested around age 15 or 16: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/VATech/...3050483&page=1 What's sad in this story is that people just assumed it was clinical depression, where all the signs pointed much more strongly to schizophrenia (taking pictures of people everywhere for no reason, pretending to have alternate personalities, denying elements of reality, the stalking, the bizarre use of religious iconography, the comment that the "saw promiscuity in the eyes" of one of the girls he was stalking, etc.). People just aren't aware of the signs of schizophrenia.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Schizophrenia doesn't usually manifest itself until late adolescence (usually between the ages of18 and 25 in males). Though it causes profound cognitive impairment, it does NOT retard mental capacity. John Nash, as mentioned above is an excellent example. I personally know several patients who became symptomatic midway through or shortly after graduating Ivy-League and other top tier universities. ABC does not count as an 'excellent analysis' for what is or is not schizophrenia. Take a look in the DSM if you want the definition. Better yet, check out the National Institute of Mental Health website: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinform...hreniamenu.cfm
As you will see from the information there, most schizophrenics are not violent nor are they prone to violence against others (and in the RARE case of violence it is usually directed at family members). This is sadly one of many common misconceptions about the disorder.

In terms of him being mentally dumb, you also clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The definition of mental retardation according the DSM-IV (the manual used by all mental health care providers that outlines the clinical definitions for all recognized mental illnesses) is someone who scores below a 70-75 on an IQ test. Such individuals are impaired to such an extant that complex planning and execution of said plans are impossible. Can a mentally dumb person kill somebody? Absolutely. Can a mentally dumb person spend weeks planning, acquiring necessary equipment, writing manifestos (however rambling), have the foresight to lock doors from the inside so people can't thwart his plans, etc? Definitely not.

Speaking as someone who has personally cared for mentally ill individuals, who has friends who have suffered with mental illnesses, and who has family members who have dedicated their lives to the treatment and research of mental illnesses, I find it profoundly insulting when someone labels any deviant as dumb or schizophrenic when they have no idea of what these illnesses are.

Cho was clearly suffering severely, was very upset, unhappy, and felt disenfranchised and demeaned. He clearly needed help, which he obviously did not receive (though it appears that this happened despite the best efforts of several of his professors). However, to just call him schizophrenic or dumb because those are the in catch phrases of the moment does a disservice to anyone working in mental health as well as to those who suffer from mental illness.

 

[marvin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pm@c /img/forum/go_quote.gif why would they allow people with any sort of mental illness, such as depression, access to firearms.

Because the vast majority of people with mental illnesses aren't dangerous. Like it or not, the RKBA is a Constitutional Right and stripping someone of their constitutional right is a fairly big deal.

The assumption is that if someone is too dangerous to trust with a firearm, they're too dangerous to trust period. That's what the ban on firearms ownership by the mentally defective is for. After all, if there's a high risk that you'd murder someone, you're obviously mentally defective.

 

[Gamemako]

...Sans a short list of posters including chadbang and plainsong,

You people make me sick.

I think I'll post more later. Right now I'd rather slap some of you silly, and that's never a good time to post.

 

[redshifter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif he's dead. does it really matter?

yeah but if he died satisfied knowing he was going to get his videos broadcast, then the media doesn't, at least he would have been dead wrong.

it was like he put a psycho myspace page in a box and mailed it to nbc. i don't read myspace and i'm not interested in what this douchenozzle has to say either.

 

[Kirosia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then there's the wonderful emotional/sexual inadequacies issues, and the large dose of resentment due to the white/Asian intermixing disparity. Note that he killed a white girl first.

Where'd you get that from? Did he say something on the vids or letter or whatever? (Haven't seen them yet)