[davidebasilio]

Hi all, I bumped into this discussion while looking fro info about these cans..
I went through the thread (quite helpful), but I didn't find much info about a couple things:
 
- Loudness. I used to own a pair of MM550-X and I found that they lacked loudness in some cases, can someone compare the momentum wireless to the MM550-X? I mean, I don't need super loud stuff, but being able to normally use less-than-max volume and have a little headroom to use just in case would be great.
 
- Firmware updates. I've read that the firmware should be updatable via USB, does anyone have info whether sennheiser is actually planning on shipping updates?
 
- ANC control. So, the ANC will be on any time the cans are on, so there is no way to do bluetooth with no ANC. Did anyone contact Sennheiser about this? Is there a chance that it will change with an update?
 
- Availability. I've read around rumors that production should be resumed sometime in August; does anyone have fresh news?
 
Thanks for any input!

 

[manuscelerdei]

Hello folks,
 
I opened a support ticket with Sennheiser about this issue and tried to get some useful information out of them. Here's what I got, in a nutshell.
 
They did not acknowledge any widespread problems in the headset. They said the Bluetooth issues only affected a small batch of headsets. They seem confident that they'll start shipping the headset again in late August. There will be no firmware update offered to current headset owners, but you can of course do a warranty claim for replacement.
 
I asked specifically whether the headsets due to ship in August would have different hardware or firmware in the context of "If nothing was wrong with most of the units, should I just try and find a used headset online?" They got pretty squirrely and didn't give an answer except to recommend that I wait until they start shipping again so that I ensure I don't get one of the problem units. I also asked whether there will be a firmware update offered to customers with existing headsets, and they said no.
 
I'm personally skeptical of the claim that there wasn't a larger problem. Recalling every unit and stopping sales for months is a pretty drastic measure just to do a quality control check. Taking a product off the market to individually test what are probably thousands of units seems like a huge waste of time and money. And the exchange with their support just gave me the impression that they were being evasive and not wanting to admit to a larger problem.
 
Anyway, for me, the problems aren't so bad (I have the on-ear Momentums, but I want to upgrade to the over-ears when they're available). Definitely some audio problems when I initially step outside, but they clear up quickly. The sound is beautiful, and having the wired option is great for planes. Also, ~20 hours of battery life is just something I have not found in any other headset in this price range. But for that kind of money, I (reasonably, I think) expect flawless Bluetooth operation. My Jaybirds, which I use for working out, were only about $100, but they work brilliantly over Bluetooth.

 

[davidebasilio]

Thanks manuscelerdei for the useful information!
 
I also contacted them with the same questions as in my previous post, I will post updates when / if the reply.
 
The situation seems strange to me, too.. They clearly adopted a pretty drastic countermeasure; it looks like it is either a software or a design problem, not a production flow of a few units.
By the way, from what I read, it seems that the BT issues happen mostly (only?) with Apple devices.. Apple uses a proprietary BT stack implementation that has been known for issues before, so perhaps the real culprit is not Senn (or not completely), but some weird interaction with Apple's implementation.
 
Well.. Anyway, waiting one more full month is a lot, but I really can't find a valid alternative right now to offer good quality, bluetooth, and ANC.
I guess I could just get another pair of the MM-550X (which were stolen with my backpack a few months back), but I was aiming for an upgrade..
 
About loudness, do you find the on-ear version loud enough?
Can anyone else comment on that?

 

[manuscelerdei]

Whether the stack is proprietary or not doesn't really matter; like I said, Jaybird was able to make earbuds that work flawlessly with my Apple devices, so I'd expect Sennheiser to be able to as well. Doing so does not require access to the Bluetooth implementation. 
 
For me, the on-ear ones are pretty outstanding in terms of immersion, so I do find them loud enough. They mute street noise pretty effectively (not entirely, but more than enough to make listening to a podcast while walking down a busy street with plenty of clarity). I'm mainly looking to get the around-ear versions for comfort. My ears are kinda big, and the on-ear ones can get a little uncomfortable after extended wear. For now though, they're my best option. So I'm eagerly awaiting the new revision of the Momentum around-ear headset. I'll probably give my on-ears to my girlfriend.

 

[davidebasilio]

Quote:

 Whether the stack is proprietary or not doesn't really matter; like I said, Jaybird was able to make earbuds that work flawlessly with my Apple devices, so I'd expect Sennheiser to be able to as well. Doing so does not require access to the Bluetooth implementation. 

 
Well, that might not be completely accurate.
While I have no idea about this specific case, it's totally possible that a proprietary implementation of a protocol does not perfectly follow the standard and it thus requires "hacks" for other devices to work properly.
 
Well, anyway I guess we can just wait and hope that they will fix the issues asap and resume production, possibly with some help form Apple.

 

[manuscelerdei]

Well, that might not be completely accurate.
While I have no idea about this specific case, it's totally possible that a proprietary implementation of a protocol does not perfectly follow the standard and it thus requires "hacks" for other devices to work properly.

 
That is not how standards work. Apple would not be able to advertise Bluetooth capabilities if they did not adhere to the standard in an independently verifiable way. Black box verification is how standards compliance is done.
 
If there are implementation bugs which cause deviation from the standard that the standards-compliance test suite does not catch, then it makes no difference whether the implementation is proprietary or open source. It is not part of standards compliance testing to read the implementation because the implementation is very purposefully considered separate from the standard specification.

 

[davidebasilio]

 
If there are implementation bugs which cause deviation from the standard that the standards-compliance test suite does not catch, then it makes no difference whether the implementation is proprietary or open source. It is not part of standards compliance testing to read the implementation because the implementation is very purposefully considered separate from the standard specification.

 
That is perfectly right.
 
I just remember a friend of mine complaining several times about bluetooth on Apple devices because of bugs in their implementation.
That was some time ago, though, so it is totally possible that things are fine now and Apple has no part in all this.
 
In the end, I don't think that the actual technical cause of this problem will ever be known outside Sennheiser (or Apple, if there is something there), so this is really quite sterile speculation, I probably should not have started it in the first place.
 
Thanks for the feedback on loudness, if someone who owns the over-ear version could add their opinion, that would be appreciated!

 

[samandhi]

  Thanks manuscelerdei for the useful information!
 
I also contacted them with the same questions as in my previous post, I will post updates when / if the reply.
 
The situation seems strange to me, too.. They clearly adopted a pretty drastic countermeasure; it looks like it is either a software or a design problem, not a production flow of a few units.
By the way, from what I read, it seems that the BT issues happen mostly (only?) with Apple devices.. Apple uses a proprietary BT stack implementation that has been known for issues before, so perhaps the real culprit is not Senn (or not completely), but some weird interaction with Apple's implementation.
 
Well.. Anyway, waiting one more full month is a lot, but I really can't find a valid alternative right now to offer good quality, bluetooth, and ANC.
I guess I could just get another pair of the MM-550X (which were stolen with my backpack a few months back), but I was aiming for an upgrade..
 
About loudness, do you find the on-ear version loud enough?
Can anyone else comment on that?

  If you read back a lot of pages, you will see this is NOT apple specific. As a matter of fact most of the issues that were first seen (at least posted about here), were from using android. This is most likely (my guess from all the information gathering I could do) a combination of issues. The reason that ANC can not be turned off while the headphones are on is because the DAC and ANC circuit are one (from Sennheiser). Combine that with the very very low power the circuit uses, and it almost seems as though your problem might just be one of the things that make this headphone so great. The low power consumption. This is all conjecture from me, so please don't flame me. This could also be wrong. After all, if Sennheiser could update software to fix this issue, wouldn't they?
 
  The other poster was right. Apple holds no patents on standardized bluetooth. But, you have to remember that Apple has ways around that. On any iPhon, iPod, etc... you have generic bluetooth, which is usable by any regular bluetooth device. They have other implementations that fall under their MFi program (which is a set of different implementations for many different things, like accessory protocols, and the like, all rolled up into one program).
 
  The Momentum uses a codec called AptX, which allows for a much higher bandwidth transmission rate (think, less compression) to allow for higher quality sound. Apple has their own version of this (that is, of course, proprietary software). What could be going wrong for apple and this device, might be that, there is no control as to whether the Momentum hooks up via AptX or not. It is first priority, but if that fails, it should use the standard bluetooth protocols. If the apple device that the momentums are trying to connect to are trying to use the apple codec, and upon failure, not connecting correctly to the standard BT protocols, you might have some serious issues.
 
  Of course, take all of this with a grain of salt. You know how Apple is (as is most big companies). If there is a problem, they will not rush right out and tell everyone that they are having these issues. I think the apple problem is NOT specific to this headphone. I think the problem with all other BT devices IS (at least in part) the headphones problem. Or, at least a combination between the headhone hardware and implementation of BT on devices.
 
  I, for one, have not noticed ANY issues with my iPod touch (newest gen). But I have not updated the software since I bought it brand new (when they first came out). And I have read a lot about how it started in one of the FW updates since then.

 

[nottheface]

How is the ANC for these headphones?  Was thinking of getting these to replace my aging QC 15's. 

 

[samandhi]

  How is the ANC for these headphones?  Was thinking of getting these to replace my aging QC 15's. 

  For what Sennheiser intended them to do, they work flawlessly (for me). They will block out a most of the really lows, and some really highs, but leave a lot of the mids alone. I think they intended that so you could hear, say, a flight attendant in mid flight, if you needed to. If you check out their website there is a demo to show/explain how their branded ANC works... 
 
  For the people that try and compare them to QC 25's, I don't think they were meant to try and remove ALL of the sound...

 

[nottheface]

 
  For what Sennheiser intended them to do, they work flawlessly (for me). They will block out a most of the really lows, and some really highs, but leave a lot of the mids alone. I think they intended that so you could hear, say, a flight attendant in mid flight, if you needed to. If you check out their website there is a demo to show/explain how their branded ANC works... 
 
  For the people that try and compare them to QC 25's, I don't think they were meant to try and remove ALL of the sound...

For me it's mostly about using them on  a plane.  Reducing the engine noise and other white noise on a plane so I don't have to turn the volume up.  If it does that effectively then I'm pretty happy.  The band on my QC 15 is a bit loose so I don't get a great seal despite my big giant head.  So they don't eliminate all sound anyway.

 

[davidebasilio]

Hi all,
 
A person from Sennheiser replied (quite fast) to my request. Here's a summary of the answers:
 
- He confirmed that ANC has to be on when BT is on, there is no way around this (as samandhi was saying).
 
- the max volume of the momentum wireless is higher than the MM series (I'd still be interested to hear an opinion from someone who tried both, though).
 
- Firmware is upgradable, but there are no current specific plans to push an update.
 
- They can't provide availability dates, he reports that it is "later than August".

 

[samandhi]

  Hi all,
 
A person from Sennheiser replied (quite fast) to my request. Here's a summary of the answers:
 
- He confirmed that ANC has to be on when BT is on, there is no way around this (as samandhi was saying).
 
- the max volume of the momentum wireless is higher than the MM series (I'd still be interested to hear an opinion from someone who tried both, though).
 
- Firmware is upgradable, but there are no current specific plans to push an update.
 
- They can't provide availability dates, he reports that it is "later than August".

  It looks like they have changed the software listing on their site. It was very difficult to find to begin with, but now looking at the software description, they have removed that it is suitable for Momentum Wireless. When I downloaded it back in February, it at least listed them on the list of devices compatible.
 
  If you are interested in at least having the software (for future reference, in case they change their minds again), go here: http://en-us.sennheiser.com/service-support-services-software-downloads and type in the search bar: Sennheiser Updater User (Application Software), or just Sennheiser Updater user (the word "User" is important, as there is 2 different software packages named "Sennheiser Updater". One is end user, the other is IT).
 
  Just open the software with your HP plugged in via USB (after having installed the 30mb software, of course), and it will recognize it and go from there...
 
  The information regarding the specs of the the M2, is not enough to calculate the db level at max volume. But I can tell you this; at max volume on my note 4, it can damage your hearing pretty quickly. They are pretty loud. This is not to say I haven't listened to louder, but they will start to hurt after about a song or 2 (especially with anything with lots of highs). Hope this helps out a bit...
 
  If you are interested in further reading about loudness, and your hearing, check out this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/650931/your-hearing-and-you

 

[ukwebmaster]

Hi
 
I have both the MM 550X and the Momentum 2.0 Wireless Around Ear.
 
I bought the MM 550X about 18 months ago. I wanted a pair of wireless + noise cancelling headphones. I have enjoyed the sound, but (despite having read reviews warning me) I couldn't believe how quiet they were. With the MM 550X, I've had them on max volume most of the time, even in a quiet room.
 
By comparison, I've had the M2AEBT for 3 months. The volume (which I'm sure someone will always want louder) is plenty loud enough for me, absolutely no comparison to the MM 550X. On max volume I can listen to 2, maybe 3 songs and then my ears tell me they've had enough. As I increase the volume via my iphone, the last 5 notches make a massive different each step.
 
I'm very, very happy with the sound quality and volume of these headphones. Occasional bluetooth stutter, but once Sennheiser starts selling them again, I'll have them switched over (because they should be perfect).
 
Hope this helps.
 
James

 

[hwels]

I'm still struggling and trying to find out what the problem is with the Bluetooth stutter on Mac OS X versions 10.10.2 - 10.10.4. It seems that it is less frequently on the latest update, but it is still pretty annoying. Using Bluetooth Explorer and trying various Bluetooth settings (playing with the buffer range, quality, aptX and/or SBC, VBR or constant), it still doesn't play the audio without constant stutter. Even when you force it to use the lower bitrate SBC codec, the problem still exists unfortunately.

Thankfully I have no problems with audio stutter using my iPhone 6 Plus, so it seems like it's definitely a Bluetooth stack issue on Yosemite. Hopefully El Capitain will fix all these annoying problems.