[Lan647]

 
Quote:

Thanks for the suggestions.
 
> For B: $8,500 = 90%-100% of their potential. That last ten percent is with the usual audiophool tricks (tubes, cables, meteor rocks, foam mods, etc.) Rough guessimate. Haven't explored enough solid-state amps to say. A lot of tube amps tend to have a little bit higher impedance which goes better with the HD800.
 
I should have said I meant 90% as far as the AMP is capable of achieving. So in other words, assuming we stick to the stock cable, no "audiophool tricks"... then what DAC/Amp price range achieves 90% of what most other DAC/Amps can.
 
P.S. I found some threads and it seems the Violectric V200 is generally considered very very good, at $1000. There's also some talk about it being the amp that Sennheiser used while developing the HD800s?
 
In any case I honestly don't intend to pay more in amps/dacs than the retail price of the HD800. Maybe when I'm old and gray and have more money than I know what to do with, but not yet.

I have yet to hear a solid state amp that truly shines with the HD 800. I don't believe in solid state actually, not even for the LCD-2. Solid state is the way to go if you have low budget (kinda like me). But what you want is an amp that preserves the technicalitites (speed, clarity, impact, snap etc) that a good SS provides but coupled with warmth, tone, emotion and liquidity. In my book, the optimal music system scores 10/10 on technicalitites but provides music enjoyment for your soul, convinces you, takes you places, makes you happy. So far, I've only heard speakers do this, but I have also yet to hear a world class headphone out of a world class tube amp with world class source and interconnects...
 

 

[John Willett]

Quote:

A) How much money would you say you'd have to pay for a DAC and SOLID STATE Amp to sufficiently drive HD800s to say ~90% their full potential, more or less?
 
 

About £1,800 for a Grace m903 - superb

 

[Shahrose]

Ditto what purrin said.
 
I feel the HD800 demand tubes somewhere in the chain for peak performance...they don't necessarily have to be in the amp though.
You can have an awesome all-SS setup, but if we're talking about extracting the best with a SS DAC, high-end tube or hybrid amps are the way to go.
 
ac500: The V200 was not used in the production of the HD800. One of the designers of the Senns uses the V100 (not 200) for his own system. That's how this rumour started and now has blown into this...In any case, I bought the V100 for this very reason, and it turned out it was very mediocre for its price point. Sold it.

 

[ac500]

Good to know about the V200/V100.
 
Too bad about the tubes thing though. I don't like tubes.

 

[Gabrielisc]

Last night I sat with my Asus essence xonar one & my friends littledot mk3, at the same price range they run quite a good comparison of ss vs tubes (IMO).
 
Using the Essence ones DAC via ordinary RCA to the littledot mk3.
 
I had noticed that tubes are amazing... for some genres/songs... while I found SS is better for fast paced techno/trance/dance etc.
Listening to Hans Zimmers Inception album on the SS was entertaining, but then moving on to tube I found the soundstage to open into a new world, the tubes made me feel like I was watching the movie in my living room (5.1 Polk Audio system) but far far more accurate.
Then moving on to Infected mushroom, while the effects were interesting and their detail captured my attention on the LD, the E1 was just better to my ears.
 
On another note, the LD had minor noises on the line (only at times), depending on what application I had open and the scrolling of my mouse but the E1 was clear at all times.
 
The HD800 is an amazing headphone, I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but the way I see it so far, some amps are better for certain types of music too, not just the headphone. Classical and Jazz on a tube amp were amazing, so much that its going to hurt giving my mate his LD back, but for electronic music SS seemed to be the way.

 

[Gabrielisc]

Quote:

I wonder why there aren't Wiki pages for every popular headphone out there, outlining its audio characteristics and more importantly, a list of recommended amps at every price point. Because I could really use such a thing rather than sifting through thousands of posts on the forum. I bet you get tired of asking the same questions over and over again too. Why isn't there a head-fi-wiki? (I see a wiki button above but I don't see much specific information except for misc. articles).
 
Speaking of tired rehashed questions, I have an amp question:
 
A) How much money would you say you'd have to pay for a DAC and SOLID STATE Amp to sufficiently drive HD800s to say ~90% their full potential, more or less?
 
B) Same as A but with a tube amp?

Completely agree, something like:
 
Best SS amp for HD800 under $500/$1000/$2000
Best Tube amp for HD800 under $500/$1000/$2000
Best DAC for HD800 under $500/$1000/$2000 
 

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

My opinion and/or construction of "90% of their full potential" obviously differs a bit from Purrin's....

Heehee 

. One's 90% could be another's 40%. Here are the challenges for the HD800:
 

• Tonality. HD800s can sound thin and dry. Some even have a lower treble peak. This may not even be an issue for many folks.
• Bass slam and overall dynamics. HD800s can be lacking in bass and slam. They can also sound weak. Potentially, the HD800 can slam better than any LCD#. LCD can still produce louder low bass with better articulation though.
• Resolution. Unless you have ever heard the HD800 out of at least a $2000 DAC or a turntable setup (with a corresponding transparent amp), you have no hint what they are even capable of. This is a big one. Source limits the potential. Source is everything in a way. This also includes recordings unfortunately. So in other words, most of the crap music I listen to doesn't take advantage of what the HD800 is capable of other than to allow me hear the different mic'ing and processing effects of the different mixes in the tracks.
• Soundstage precison and depth. HD800 soundstage can be overly wide, diffuse, lack centering, lack pin-point imaging. Soundstage can be wide but with no depth. The HD800 is capable of exact spot on center and pin-point imaging. The HD800 is capable of of providing more depth than any other headphone (it's not even close) with the exception of those AKG and STAX ear-speaker thingies.

 
To a large extent, you can go far with and #1 and #2 with modest cash outlay
#3 Starts to get expensive. Some feel this even requires tubes. Honestly I believe it can go either way.
#4 Requires tubes. The right tubes and right tube amp. Tube sound with close to solid-state drive - speed, bass control, clarity, treble extension. Not cheap.
 
Quote:

ac500: The V200 was not used in the production of the HD800. One of the designers of the Senns uses the V100 (not 200) for his own system. That's how this rumour started and now has blown into this...In any case, I bought the V100 for this very reason, and it turned out it was very mediocre for its price point. Sold it.

Wait, I thought it was the BCL? 

 

 

[ac500]

I also read about the BCL being good for the HD800 in some threads...
 
Anyway I'm not sure why you say pinpoint imaging etc. is so hard to achieve without tubes as you said in #4. I heard the HD800 on the Beyer A1 a while back, and I heard everything with absolute pinpoint 3D positioning to my ears. Maybe it gets even better, I don't know.
 
> out of at least a $2000 DAC 
 
See, this has always confused me. How much are DAC chips actually worth? Something like $20 or maybe $50 at most? So then what else is pushing the cost up so much? Seriously, why do "high end" DACs cost so much and what makes them so special? It's not like they have massive amplification to perform. Are you sure there's no placebo beyond the DAC chip itself?
 
Then again I'm skeptical about a lot of things people here love, like tubes. Tubes introduce harmonic distortion (essentially raising that "THD" rating drastically)... THD = bad, to me . But I guess I'll have to wait for the meet next month so I can try them out for myself and see what all the silly fuss is about these ancient bubbles of glass filled with gas.

 

[ac500]

Quote:

Last night I sat with my Asus essence xonar one & my friends littledot mk3, at the same price range they run quite a good comparison of ss vs tubes (IMO).
 
Using the Essence ones DAC via ordinary RCA to the littledot mk3.
 
I had noticed that tubes are amazing... for some genres/songs... while I found SS is better for fast paced techno/trance/dance etc.
Listening to Hans Zimmers Inception album on the SS was entertaining, but then moving on to tube I found the soundstage to open into a new world, the tubes made me feel like I was watching the movie in my living room (5.1 Polk Audio system) but far far more accurate.
Then moving on to Infected mushroom, while the effects were interesting and their detail captured my attention on the LD, the E1 was just better to my ears.
 
On another note, the LD had minor noises on the line (only at times), depending on what application I had open and the scrolling of my mouse but the E1 was clear at all times.
 
The HD800 is an amazing headphone, I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but the way I see it so far, some amps are better for certain types of music too, not just the headphone. Classical and Jazz on a tube amp were amazing, so much that its going to hurt giving my mate his LD back, but for electronic music SS seemed to be the way.

 
That's interesting... and conflicting because I like both Infected Mushroom type music, and classical/jazz. I wonder if the higher end amps like the Beta22 would do well with both types? If it's true that lesser amps are more specialized then it may be more cost effective to just get a really good one that does everything well.
 
But according to purrin, my HD800 will sound like trash until I can gather up $10,000 or so 

. I guess I could sell my car

 

[Gwarmi]

Quote:

I also read about the BCL being good for the HD800 in some threads...
 
Anyway I'm not sure why you say pinpoint imaging etc. is so hard to achieve without tubes as you said in #4. I heard the HD800 on the Beyer A1 a while back, and I heard everything with absolute pinpoint 3D positioning to my ears. Maybe it gets even better, I don't know.
 
> out of at least a $2000 DAC 
 
See, this has always confused me. How much are DAC chips actually worth? Something like $20 or maybe $50 at most? So then what else is pushing the cost up so much? Seriously, why do "high end" DACs cost so much and what makes them so special? It's not like they have massive amplification to perform. Are you sure there's no placebo beyond the DAC chip itself?
 

 
 Just switched from a Nuforce DAC-9 (funny problem where it drops out) to the Cambridge DacMagic+ - you can certainly hear the difference in resolution,
 not to mention two different presentations between the two DAC's, the DacMagicPlus is boring and stale sounding compared to the DAC-9. Biggest difference
 to my ears is how the Nuforce likes to linger on notes and extend properly - The price difference is there too!
 
 
 
 

 

[Saintly]

Quote:

 

Heehee 

. One's 90% could be another's 40%. Here are the challenges for the HD800:
 

• Tonality. HD800s can sound thin and dry. Some even have a lower treble peak. This may not even be an issue for many folks.
• Bass slam and overall dynamics. HD800s can be lacking in bass and slam. They can also sound weak. Potentially, the HD800 can slam better than any LCD#. LCD can still produce louder low bass with better articulation though.
• Resolution. Unless you have ever heard the HD800 out of at least a $2000 DAC or a turntable setup (with a corresponding transparent amp), you have no hint what they are even capable of. This is a big one. Source limits the potential. Source is everything in a way. This also includes recordings unfortunately. So in other words, most of the crap music I listen to doesn't take advantage of what the HD800 is capable of other than to allow me hear the different mic'ing and processing effects of the different mixes in the tracks.
• Soundstage precison and depth. HD800 soundstage can be overly wide, diffuse, lack centering, lack pin-point imaging. Soundstage can be wide but with no depth. The HD800 is capable of exact spot on center and pin-point imaging. The HD800 is capable of of providing more depth than any other headphone (it's not even close) with the exception of those AKG and STAX ear-speaker thingies.

 
To a large extent, you can go far with and #1 and #2 with modest cash outlay
#3 Starts to get expensive. Some feel this even requires tubes. Honestly I believe it can go either way.
#4 Requires tubes. The right tubes and right tube amp. Tube sound with close to solid-state drive - speed, bass control, clarity, treble extension. Not cheap.
 

I feel like I have a good amount of 1-3 (to me, and probably only me) but 4 is a bit lacking through my HRT MS II and Meier Concerto.  I do find the soundstage too diffuse and that the pin-point imaging was actually more precise on my T1s.  
 
Any suggestions to improve my set-up would be appreciated.  I'm particularly interested in solid states since they will be easier to transport back and forth between university and home.
 
Thanks!
 

 

[ac500]

Edit: Nevermind.

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

I also read about the BCL being good for the HD800 in some threads...
 
Anyway I'm not sure why you say pinpoint imaging etc. is so hard to achieve without tubes as you said in #4. I heard the HD800 on the Beyer A1 a while back, and I heard everything with absolute pinpoint 3D positioning to my ears. Maybe it gets even better, I don't know.
 
> out of at least a $2000 DAC 
 
See, this has always confused me. How much are DAC chips actually worth? Something like $20 or maybe $50 at most? So then what else is pushing the cost up so much? Seriously, why do "high end" DACs cost so much and what makes them so special? It's not like they have massive amplification to perform. Are you sure there's no placebo beyond the DAC chip itself?
 
Then again I'm skeptical about a lot of things people here love, like tubes. Tubes introduce harmonic distortion (essentially raising that "THD" rating drastically)... THD = bad, to me . But I guess I'll have to wait for the meet next month so I can try them out for myself and see what all the silly fuss is about these ancient bubbles of glass filled with gas.

Well I take back the pin-point imaging thing, but the soundstage depth and outside centered (vs. in your head centered experience) is definitely more of a tube thing.
 
Power transformers, power supplies, independence of power supplies, high powered discrete output stages, digital interfaces, capacitors, etc. I'm starting to think the chip is only 25% of a DAC's sound. A lot of things make small differences, but taken together, the differences become larger. I've always encouraged DIY. Buffalo DAC is good. Build one or buy one used for $750ish.
 
Well designed tubes amps don't just randomly add harmonic distortion! LOL. As far as electrons moving between surfaces in "ancient bubbles filled with no-gas", think about transistors from the tube designer POV: electrons moving on millimeter surfaces filled with rust and crud. 

 I'm starting to hear some good solid-state stuff, so I'm not just a tube guy.

 

[ac500]

Hmm well it sounded very remarkably outside of my head too on the A1, but that's pretty subjective because what sounds like a huge soundstage to me might seem small to you and your synergistic perfection DAC and amp

> As far as electrons moving between surfaces in "ancient bubbles filled with no-gas", think about transistors from the tube designer POV: electrons moving on millimeter surfaces filled with rust and crud.
 
Except it's hermetically sealed semiconductor services with well defined and highly linear (in certain regions) responses. To be fair I never learned older tech than BJT transistors, so I have no clue of the actual characteristics of tubes except for some plots from wikipedia, which I might add look scary bad in terms of nonlinearity (in the amplitude domain... so that means lots and lots of harmonics). But maybe there are good tubes, I dunno.

In annnyyy case I guess I'll just have to wait. I'll see what my HD800s sound like on my lowly NFB-12, and then next month I'll see if I can test them out on random people's amps at the upcoming local meet in my area
 
Hmm I wonder how much it would cost in parts to build a Beta 22.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

In regards to the synergy between gear and HD800 (SN #660 from CanJam 2009), I found that they definitely can be picky:
 
1) The PS Audio PWD and Stello DA100 are better DACs to use with HD800 than the Apogee mini-DAC or DACmini.  The HDP DAC is a little too aggressive with them, but that's improved a lot if I use a Sigma 11 PSU with it.  The uDAC-2 was a decent budget DAC for an HD-800 rig.  I don't recall pairing my Micro DAC or Pico DAC in an HD-800 rig, but they should pair about as well as the Apogee or DACmini.
 
2) The Luxman P-1u is my favorite SS amp with HD-800, and sounds a lot like my Eddie Current ZDT.  The HiFiMan HM-801 is also good with HD800.  The ALO Amphora is pretty close and works almost as well with the HD-800.  The Pico Slim doesn't have enough power, but the warm tonality is a good match for low-normal volume listening.  The HD-800 sound a little bright and fatiguing with my DACmini, SAC KH1000 and HDP - of those three the DACmini is the least offensive with HD-800 but the HD-800 demand more warmth and less neutrality.  I can enjoy the HD-800 with my balanced SR-71b, but again it's closer to the neutrality of the DACmini and not quite where I want it to be in terms of taming the HD-800.
 
3) As for Tube amps, my Eddie Current ZDT silver transformers is a great match and a bit better than my WA6. (While the ZDT is great with HD-800, HE-5LE, HE-500, HE-6, HF-2, and LA7000 it's slightly dark with LCD-2 rev1).  To enjoy the HD-800 with my WA6 I need to change the Sophia Princess 274b to a Hytron 5U4G, and the Sylvania VT-231 to some RCA 6DE7.  That is a good pairing at that point, offering a warmer tone although smaller soundstage.  The Sophia/Sylvania tube set is what I used with something like the LCD-2/HD600/HE-5LE.  I had a borrowed WA22 for 2 weeks in 2009 that was not bad with HD-800 but not as good as the ZDT (it was using a Sophia Princess 274b).  AT RMAF 2010 I though the Schitt Valhalla paired very well with the HD-800.  The HD-800 just sounded wrong with my EF5 last time I tried it (I should try it again someday, but the EF5 with RCA clear top is a great match with my HE-5, HE-5 LE, HE-500 and HE-6).  I seem to recall my EF2 and my son's Millett Starving Student Hybrid weren't bad with HD-800 for a budget amp, but that was a long time ago.  Those two amps really shined with hi-end Grados as well.