[Mike F]

But sort of a moot point as no matter what level of equipment the 600/650 are connected to their signature sound will not emulate the performance of the 660s driver, nor should they. From personal experience they will not all of a sudden stop to be laid back and sound brighter or have faster base, their sound staging aspects will remain the same, yes they'll scale but only relative to themselves.

So with that in mind, unless one prefers the more laid back character of the 600/650..the 660 IMHO is the much better performing phone regardless of the equipment or price.
But again..... always personal preference.

Understand what you're saying here, Rob, but isn't the whole point about scalability that at some point a scalable headphone will surpass the performance of one which doesn't scale as well, even though the one that doesn't scale may well sound better on many lesser setups? I know that in a way you've already answered this, but if it is the case that, 'yes they'll scale but only relative to themselves', then that would by definition be true of any headphone and make nonsense of the accepted idea of scaleability (which may well BE nonsense, but if it isn't then my first sentence is true).

Surely the whole premise of the concept of scaleability in headphones is that it applies relative to other headphones?

 

[vaibhavp]

Understand what you're saying here, Rob, but isn't the whole point about scalability that at some point a scalable headphone will surpass the performance of one which doesn't scale as well, even though the one that doesn't scale may well sound better on many lesser setups? I know that in a way you've already answered this, but if it is the case that, 'yes they'll scale but only relative to themselves', then that would by definition be true of any headphone and make nonsense of the accepted idea of scaleability (which may well BE nonsense, but if it isn't then my first sentence is true).

Surely the whole premise of the concept of scaleability in headphones is that it applies relative to other headphones?

A hp with less distortion will always maintain higher detail level.

As far as i have experienced, provided no hp is deprived of power.

Distortion percentage is fixed value. Don't really prefer to evoke science to prove a point in headfi, but thats how i hear it as well.

 

[Sigmaaa]

but isn't the whole point about scalability that at some point a scalable headphone will surpass the performance of one which doesn't scale as well

Actually, no, it doesn' make sense to always be like that. Some may sound extraordinarily good on almost anything without much scaling, others may improve a lot from source to source, but still never surpass the ones that sound good on anything.


Let's say, for example, hd650 sounds like a 5 on an average source and 8 on a very good source, but hd660s sounds like an 8 on an average source and a 9 on a very good source. So the hd650 never surpasses the hd660s, despite scaling a lot more with source. Simple logic.

 

[Rob80b]

Surely the whole premise of the concept of scaleability in headphones is that it applies relative to other headphones?

Possibly.... if you have two "identical" sounding headphones to start with.

Actually, no, it doesn' make sense to always be like that.
........
So the hd650 never surpasses the hd660s, despite scaling a lot more with source. Simple logic

Exactly...having had the 580/600/650 and now the 660 running off the same systems I would still prefer the 660s sound off my $300 DAP than the 580/600/650 with the $5000 Bryston combo, even though they had scaled, relative to themselves, much better with the Brystons than the little FiiO X3II.

 

[Mike F]

Possibly.... if you have two "identical" sounding headphones to start with.

Well, I don't wish to seem pedantic, but if you had two identical sounding phones, you'd have two of the same phone and then they would again only scale relative to themselves, rather than to others........

 

[Mike F]

Let's say, for example, hd650 sounds like a 5 on an average source and 8 on a very good source, but hd660s sounds like an 8 on an average source and a 9 on a very good source. So the hd650 never surpasses the hd660s, despite scaling a lot more with source. Simple logic.

OK, that makes perfect sense, but then what is the supposed advantage of a headphone that scales well as opposed to a slightly more expensive ('better') one which doesn't? Surely then your just back to the simple fact that one will always sound better than the other, no matter what you do. Perhaps I've misunderstood what is meant by scaleability, but if what you say above is true (and I accept that it may be) then scaleability is a non-issue. BS, in fact!

 

[kman1211]

OK, that makes perfect sense, but then what is the supposed advantage of a headphone that scales well as opposed to a slightly more expensive ('better') one which doesn't? Surely then your just back to the simple fact that one will always sound better than the other, no matter what you do. Perhaps I've misunderstood what is meant by scaleability, but if what you say above is true (and I accept that it may be) then scaleability is a non-issue. BS, in fact!

Depends on the headphone. Some headphones do pull ahead over others it’s competition with in terms of scaling given all are properly driven. Though to me I always thought the HD 600/650 scalability has been exaggerated, I honestly thought some of the competition scaled just as well if not better. I don’t really think it’s worth putting all that extra money into a system to make it catch up or possibly be a little better than a somewhat more expensive headphone. It’s better to invest in a better headphone before a better system unless the system is a real bottleneck.

 

[pietcux]

Depends on the headphone. Some headphones do pull ahead of others in terms of scaling. Though to me I always thought the HD 600/650 scalability has been exaggerated, I honestly thought some of the competition scaled just as well if not better. I don’t really think it’s worth putting all that extra money into a system to make it catch up or possibly be a little better than a somewhat more expensive headphone. It’s better to invest in a better headphone before a better system unless the system is a real bottleneck.

Imagine, a 300 € headphone running from a 5000 € Eddy Currrent amp.....

 

[kman1211]

Imagine, a 300 € headphone running from a 5000 € Eddy Currrent amp.....

I’ve heard the HD 650 on an Eddie Current Balancing Act on more than one occasion. More expensive headphones aren’t always better but there is generally some correlation with higher price being technically better. Unless the headphone really clicks with you, I don’t see much point putting so much money into the amp for said headphone.

 

[Rob80b]

Well, I don't wish to seem pedantic, but if you had two identical sounding phones, you'd have two of the same phone and then they would again only scale relative to themselves, rather than to others........

Sorry my argument was presented incorrectly...theoretically lets say I've gone off to my dealer to compare two headphones which in turn sound identical off my portable inexpensive DAP but the dealer says A will sound way better if I was to improve my equipment, that's scale-ability...so not really BS.

 

[Rob80b]

.... More expensive headphones aren’t always better but there is generally some correlation with higher price being technically better. ..........

I ran into that exact situation a few years ago... I took advantage of Amazons flash sale on some HD598s at $99 to give to some friends and compared them to my much pricier HD700s, the sound signature were so similar I wondered what gives until the volume was increased above moderate listening levels at which point the 598 drivers began to produce distortion and grain while the 700 could be pushed way above safe listening levels before running into trouble....end of argument.

 

[kman1211]

I ran into that exact situation a few years ago... I took advantage of Amazons flash sale on some HD598s at $99 to give to some friends and compared them to my much pricier HD700s, the sound signature were so similar I wondered what gives until the volume was increased above moderate listening levels at which point the 598 drivers began to produce distortion and grain while the 700 could be pushed way above safe listening levels before running into trouble....end of argument.

Honestly the HD 598 and family are headphones I won’t even bother with, they are a grainy mess and exceedingly boring to my ears, the HD 700 was notably better to my ears regardless of system or volume. Sadly the HD 595/598’s predecessors the HD 545/565 were notably better headphones, they basically replaced easier to drive, looser clamping, somewhat less refined 150 ohm versions of the HD 580’s with the HD 555/595.

 

[kiromn]

I have done some tests with tube rolling on my Vali2 with HD660s attached.
First i have swapped the Philips SQ (which sounds already very nice but the treble was a hint less than i like.) to Soviet 6N23P.
With this one the sound became harsher with pronounced treble, but gets annoying after 20-30 mins of listening. Too harsh.
After that i have putted one PCC88 tube with Zarux label. Now this is my sound. Better treble than the Philips, but not harsh and pronounced like the Soviet tube.
So, it seems that these cans can give you some good difference in the sound depending on the amp you use. I would recommend the little Vali2 as it is great headphone amp that wont brake the bank. At $150 its a real bargain.
Just make sure you stock some good amount of tubes to tune your preferred sound.

 

[amartignano]

Honestly the HD 598 and family are headphones I won’t even bother with, they are a grainy mess and exceedingly boring to my ears, the HD 700 was notably better to my ears regardless of system or volume. Sadly the HD 595/598’s predecessors the HD 545/565 were notably better headphones, they basically replaced easier to drive, looser clamping, somewhat less refined 150 ohm versions of the HD 580’s with the HD 555/595.

Well, as you see I have some headphones, but once in a while I give a run to the HD579 and they are imho very correct and pleasable headphones to listen to. The 599 has instead on my ears a somewhat "meh" mid-treble, although overall I like it, just less than the 579.

However, I agree on the goodness of the HD545/565

 

[kman1211]

Well, as you see I have some headphones, but once in a while I give a run to the HD579 and they are imho very correct and pleasable headphones to listen to. The 599 has instead on my ears a somewhat "meh" mid-treble, although overall I like it, just less than the 579.

However, I agree on the goodness of the HD545/565

I haven’t heard the newest versions of those headphones, but I really disliked the HD 555/558/595/598. So the much cheaper HD 579 sounds better than the HD 599?

The Massdrop HD 58X Jubilee seems to be a throwback to the HD 545/565 but with the HD 6xx housing.