[Mike F]

Ok, but they imply from the measurements something about the sound of the 660S that is almost the opposite at listening.
And measurements in the high frequencies with headphones is still a tricky thing, that not even mighty sonarworks people has completely solved (see the differences I stressed before)
Not mentioning that to imply sound impressions only from the frequency response is completely silly. There are more players in the game, even only looking at measurements.

I can only assume that you haven't read the SW review that I originally linked.....? They start by giving their subjective impressions from listening:-

Uncalibrated sonic performance
Subjectively, before peeking in the measurements the HD660 S felt familiar, yet it seemed brighter than the HD6XX old guard. Not annoyingly so, if used for recreative listening, however in mixing these extra highs might prove troublesome.

And isn't this the general impression here based purely on listening - that the HD660S is brighter than the HD650? Their (doubtless as accurate or more accurate than anyone else's) measurements simply bear this out.
I'm not sure what your point is......?

 

[amartignano]

I'm not sure what your point is......?

My point is that:
1)voice and strings overtones in the 660S are less pronounced than the hd600 and the hd650 (although for the hd650 I have to go by memory). And they say the opposite only mentioning freq resp graph, so it comes the 2nd point... [overtones presence and overall response tilt - brighter/darker/etc - are two different things]
2)it's at least uncomplete and incorrect to judge the sound of an headphone just from a frequency response graph, without mentioning listened music and comparison with known headphones with precise and declared tracks
3)if someone know how the 660s sounds with renowned good recordings, they perfectly do their job for production purposes, even because they seem to me to do a wonderful job up in the highs that hd600 and 650 can only dream of (overtones and timbre of triangles cymbals & co for example) and more linear/less colored and more detailed in the midbass and bass frequencies. So it's incorrect to say that they are not equally good to the 650 for the production purposes.

However now the thing seems more serious that I wanted to be and I'm starting to seem a 660S fanboy, which I'm not.

 

[donlin]

The arguments between measurements vs listening is one of the oldest in hifi and will obviously never end. IMO only, it is very unfortunate how the mania over measurements has taken hold in the head-fi world. Obviously measurements provide valuable information for headphone designers but personally I'd be very happy to never see another set of measurements in regard to how well a headphone provides musical satisfaction.

 

[kman1211]

The HD600 did bother me at times and with the help of others figured it was in the 3.5-5khz range that was the issue for me with some tracks. While the HD660S is fairly close to the HD600 the issue of the 3.5-5khz peak never bothered me on the HD660S but it is a sharper sound in the upper mids/lower treble than the HD650 with some gear that I can see being an issue for some.

I've never considered the HD650 veiled, lifeless or flat but its probably due to the choice of amp (BH Crack + tubes) for me.

@kiromn, the HD660S that I heard had about 200+ hours on them and per the owner and his two daughters they didn't change with burn-in. There was no noticeable "burn-in" with any of my headphones except for my EL-8 open which the changes were so drastic it was hard/impossible not to notice the overall change from dark/warm > warm/neutral (+50hrs) > neutral (+200hrs) and to this day is still one of my favorites.

It's definitely not as hard as the HD 600 can be, just slightly, not enough to bother me, but may bother others on certain systems. And honestly the hardness isn't there on some systems, so that could just be my system imparting a slight hardness to the sound. It is slightly sharper sounding than the HD 650 I agree. But it's absolutely nothing like the sharpness found on other headphones.

The HD 650 sounds a bit lifeless on my amp for example but as soon as I put it on a brighter amp or tubes that goes away.

The burn-in on the HD 660S was quite subtle to my ears, a slight smoothing to the sound and that's it, nothing out of the ordinary in terms of burn-in, about what I expect from a Sennheiser or Beyerdynamic in terms of break-in. The slight smoothing and less strain to the sound is my usual experience with burn-in. Only a few headphones I've owned had more extreme changes, though probably not like you did on the EL-8.

 

[Gonk]

EDIT: ^^ You pressed reply literally minutes before I just typed the below. Thanks for the input.

How bad is this "peaky" treble I am hearing about? I think I am overly sensitive to treble, as way back when, I blindly bought the Grado SR80i , and couldnt listen to them as it sounded like someone screeching in my ear.

My HD650s are on their last legs as Ive used them most days for about 10hrs or more, and have had 4 replacement cables and been dropped multiple times. They are still working, but much worse for wear. I was just going to order another pair, but with the 660s out, I am watching with interest to see if I would like them.

My main issue is that years ago I narrowed it down to the DT880 and HD650, and the more relaxed, smoother sound of the HD650 was a huge bonus for me. I use them for everything from gaming to tele conferencing, as well as music. Is the treble "as bad/sibliant/harsh" as the grados?

I never thought the HD650s had a veil apart from when I listen to them with other brighter headphones, but the fatiguing sound of those means I dont want to use them for as long as I tend to do.

 

[donlin]

For me, the peaky treble does not exist with the HD660s. They certainly have more treble energy than the HD650 but NOTHING like Grado treble. I have been a huge HD650 fan since the day they hit the street but don't find anything objectionable about the 660s treble. On the other hand the treble on the HD800/800s was too much for me.

 

[kman1211]

My point is that:
1)voice and strings overtones in the 660S are less pronounced than the hd600 and the hd650 (although for the hd650 I have to go by memory). And they say the opposite only mentioning freq resp graph, so it comes the 2nd point... [overtones presence and overall response tilt - brighter/darker/etc - are two different things]
2)it's at least uncomplete and incorrect to judge the sound of an headphone just from a frequency response graph, without mentioning listened music and comparison with known headphones with precise and declared tracks
3)if someone know how the 660s sounds with renowned good recordings, they perfectly do their job for production purposes, even because they seem to me to do a wonderful job up in the highs that hd600 and 650 can only dream of (overtones and timbre of triangles cymbals & co for example) and more linear/less colored and more detailed in the midbass and bass frequencies. So it's incorrect to say that they are not equally good to the 650 for the production purposes.

However now the thing seems more serious that I wanted to be.

Honestly I agree about the highs on the HD 600 and HD 650, there is some missing information up there. The highs are actually why I always grew bored of the HD 600/650, always felt they were lacking, like there were some musical overtones missing, it's not the case with the HD 660. The highs aren't quite as resolving of musical information as the Amiron or my best headphone in terms of sound fidelity my modded DT 480. But they are the best of any Sennheiser I've owned.

 

[kman1211]

EDIT: ^^ You pressed reply literally minutes before I just typed the below. Thanks for the input.

How bad is this "peaky" treble I am hearing about? I think I am overly sensitive to treble, as way back when, I blindly bought the Grado SR80i , and couldnt listen to them as it sounded like someone screeching in my ear.

My HD650s are on their last legs as Ive used them most days for about 10hrs or more, and have had 4 replacement cables and been dropped multiple times. They are still working, but much worse for wear. I was just going to order another pair, but with the 660s out, I am watching with interest to see if I would like them.

My main issue is that years ago I narrowed it down to the DT880 and HD650, and the more relaxed, smoother sound of the HD650 was a huge bonus for me. I use them for everything from gaming to tele conferencing, as well as music. Is the treble "as bad/sibliant/harsh" as the grados?

I never thought the HD650s had a veil apart from when I listen to them with other brighter headphones, but the fatiguing sound of those means I dont want to use them for as long as I tend to do.

The headphone isn't peaky at all, I would never call the HD 660 S peaky, just a tad hard(not the same thing as peaky) on some systems. The HD 660 S has some of the smoothest treble you will find on any headphone, it's as smooth as the HD 650's but it does resolve more information in the treble so it may come across as crisper. The SR-80i was a painful headphone to listen to, I won't own a headphone that causes my ears discomfort.

 

[Sigmaaa]

So mixing has to be done on dark headphones. This is new for me. What would be neutral, then? HD650 are dark, averybody agrees, even Tyll, haven't seen a review not to consider them a tad dark, or maybe it's one out of 100 reviews. If the HD650 would be a 0 in terms of brightness and the bright HD700 (which some people call warm for some reason) a 10, the HD660s would be a 1 or a 2 maybe, right on the neutral spot. If you decrease the brightness of HD660s for just a little bit, you end up with a HD650. If HD660s is bright, then HD700 has to be sound torture.

I still have the HD650 and enjoy them from time to time, but I wouldn't turn them into a cult and and never let go of them, there's no reason with the HD660s being available.

 

[Bengkia369]

I don't agree with some saying using using a higher end DAP wins using a mobile phone to feed into Chord Mojo. It's just digital signal and I doubt the difference is a lot, it is how Mojo decode into analog and amplify it. I personally having a AK240 and a Opus #2 (which I think many would consider high-end enough), I don't notice any difference in sound quality with my iPhone 8 feeding into my Chord Mojo-Poly.
And while Chord Mojo is more than capable in driving HD660S but amping with Phatlab Phantasy tube Amp bring it into another level!

 

[Gonk]

For me, the peaky treble does not exist with the HD660s. They certainly have more treble energy than the HD650 but NOTHING like Grado treble. I have been a huge HD650 fan since the day they hit the street but don't find anything objectionable about the 660s treble. On the other hand the treble on the HD800/800s was too much for me.

Thanks for that, good to know it wasn't just my ears with the Grado! Do you think, if you were using them like I do (many many hours a day, games, teleconferencing, music), that you wouldn't get tired of the 660s? One of the things I absolutely LOVE about the 650, is that I can do all that and the headphones just disappear from my head throughout the day whilst providing amazing sound, and then at the end of the day, crack open a bottle of wine, crank up the volume, and relax without swapping cans at all. I am worried that the 660s will be better musically, but they won't have the ability of the 650 to just feel like I am not even wearing them when I need that.

I realise this is an odd thing to ask of a mid level audiophile headphone that is primarily for music!

Thanks.

 

[donlin]

So mixing has to be done on dark headphones. This is new for me. What would be neutral, then? HD650 are dark, averybody agrees, even Tyll, haven't seen a review not to consider them a tad dark, or maybe it's one out of 100 reviews. If the HD650 would be a 0 in terms of brightness and the bright HD700 (which some people call warm for some reason) a 10, the HD660s would be a 1 or a 2 maybe, right on the neutral spot. If you decrease the brightness of HD660s for just a little bit, you end up with a HD650. If HD660s is bright, then HD700 has to be sound torture.

I still have the HD650 and enjoy them from time to time, but I wouldn't turn them into a cult and and never let go of them, there's no reason with the HD660s being available.

Maybe you haven't been around head-fi for long but there absolutely is a cult for the HD650 and I've been a member of it for years. I do prefer the 660s though which is still hard for me to believe.

 

[donlin]

So mixing has to be done on dark headphones. This is new for me. What would be neutral, then? HD650 are dark, averybody agrees, even Tyll, haven't seen a review not to consider them a tad dark, or maybe it's one out of 100 reviews. If the HD650 would be a 0 in terms of brightness and the bright HD700 (which some people call warm for some reason) a 10, the HD660s would be a 1 or a 2 maybe, right on the neutral spot. If you decrease the brightness of HD660s for just a little bit, you end up with a HD650. If HD660s is bright, then HD700 has to be sound torture.

I still have the HD650 and enjoy them from time to time, but I wouldn't turn them into a cult and and never let go of them, there's no reason with the HD660s being available.

I have noticed several photos of people in recording studios with HD650's on. There was also a PBS documentary on a year or two ago about the design of the new Ford Mustang and they showed a room of audio engineers all wearing HD650's. They were tuning the exhaust system to be sure to get the correct Mustang roar.

 

[Bengkia369]

Maybe you haven't been around head-fi for long but there absolutely is a cult for the HD650 and I've been a member of it for years. I do prefer the 660s though which is still hard for me to believe.

Somehow, I perferred the so called "mid fi" HD660S compared to HD800.
Mid-fi, flagship-fi is another another meaningless term the more expensive means flagship-fi and so on. That's how human mind tends to relate more expensive meaning better sound. This is true to some extend but not always the case.
To me, I can relate HD660S even better than my Grado GS1000e. I enjoyed my HD660S more than those more expensive models.

 

[amartignano]

Somehow, I perferred the so called "mid fi" HD660S compared to HD800.
Mid-fi, flagship-fi is another another meaningless term the more expensive means flagship-fi and so on. That's how human mind tends to relate more expensive meaning better sound. This is true to some extend but not always the case.
To me, I can relate HD660S even better than my Grado GS1000e. I enjoyed my HD660S more than those more expensive models.

That happens Nowadays I'm totally fond of the sound of the apparently very mid-fi Hd579, even if I know and hear that technically 660S ore 800S are better. (And still loving them).