[Hifivoice]

This is one of the better definitions of "grain" that I've found that was on the Crutchfield site:
"A particularly annoying treble characteristic is graininess. Treble grain is a coarseness overlaying treble textures. I notice it most on solo violin, massed violins, flute, and female voice. On flute, treble grain is recognizable as a rough or fuzzy sound that seems to ride on top of the flute's dynamic envelope. (That is, the grain follows the flute's volume.) Grain makes violins sound as though they're being played with hacksaw blades rather than bows—a gross exaggeration, but one that conveys the idea of the coarse texture added by grain."

That effect is also called "presence", mostly an excess of energy between 2 and 6 kHz. A flute that is sound "pressing" is mostly an excess of energy between the 800Hz and 2kHz, with a lack of treble to "open it up", as if you listen with your hands before your ears. Violins also get more presence if recorded from the top, as that is the region where that part of the spectrum is radiated most. There is a helpful table (source: http://www.kodachrome.org/salt/sunderst.htm) enclosed below.

I don't recognise why people say the HD650 is grainy. For me it is the example of the least grainy headphones out there (note: and not masked by an excess of high-treble). On an HD650, the different cymbals of a drum kit have their own character. On the first versions of the HD800 I've heard, they all sounded splashy and similar.

 

[DarKu]

Just received my HD660S and compared a bit to my gazillion years old HD600.
Now I can't tell for now if these big changes are coming only from my worn HD600 pads or not, but I don't think so, the difference is quite big.
There is a lot more going on with HD660, I hear new nuances like micro-details on HD660 and those are quite easy to spot.
HD660s overall sound more alive with a better punch, faster transients are also easy to catch on fast rock or electronica.
By comparison HD600 get crowded a lil bit faster and sound lil bit slow.
I never loved metal with HD600, they did ok with rock but not with metal, HD660s are better in this regard as faster transients and shorter decay of notes have a big impact on the bigger picture, yes, they do rock.

So far I really like the change, I will have more impressions soon, I'm actually doing a three way review (HD660s VS HD650 VS HD600), it should be ready in about a week from now, maybe a bit more, will see.

 

[Beagle]

This is one of the better definitions of "grain" that I've found that was on the Crutchfield site:
"A particularly annoying treble characteristic is graininess. Treble grain is a coarseness overlaying treble textures. I notice it most on solo violin, massed violins, flute, and female voice. On flute, treble grain is recognizable as a rough or fuzzy sound that seems to ride on top of the flute's dynamic envelope. (That is, the grain follows the flute's volume.) Grain makes violins sound as though they're being played with hacksaw blades rather than bows—a gross exaggeration, but one that conveys the idea of the coarse texture added by grain."

I believe that quote is from Robert Harley of TAS, and formerly of Stereophile

 

[chimney189]

I'm now very interested to see if I hear this grain in the 660S.
I find it interesting because I believe that the treble is one of its strong points!

 

[kman1211]

I'm now very interested to see if I hear this grain in the 660S.
I find it interesting because I believe that the treble is one of its strong points!

Grain is something I personally find not that correlated with frequency response. I may view it as different than others, but grain to me has to do with listening fatigue to me, it’s a slight grit, sometimes wrongness, etc. that can be found throughout the whole sound spectrum of only part of it, could be from the bass to the treble and can come off as a bit different depending on the headphone. The sound can sound fundamentally slightly to majorly wrong, it’s a little hard to explain exactly, but it’s something once you recognize you can’t really overlook it anymore. I think it may have to do with the characteristics of the transducer, transducer design, etc. and is not something easily measured. I can personally tell if something is grainy by the type of fatigue I get from a headphone.

It’s really an irritation thing and ears protesting this doesn’t sound right, headphones with low grain I found I can listen to higher volumes without issue even if bright or forward in the presence region. I find with grainy headphones I get a uncomfortable pain deep in my ear with any amount of extended listening even at low volumes. I’m more of a moderate-low to moderate volume listener. Essentially the less grain there is the less your ears strain.

 

[Rob80b]

Grain.... not to be confused with outright distortion or stridency but most do recognize it more in the higher delicate frequencies where it becomes most obvious….. but…. it’s basically the superfluous vibrations inherent in any vibrating mass, for the speaker driver it could be the underlying vibrations of the membrane itself and or housing which gets added to the original signal the driver is trying to reproduce. In most cases it is quite subtle and not very bothersome and could add a bit a character and warmth to the overall sound, for some it is intrusive and to be avoided at all cost but in reality almost impossible to eliminate.

After my hiatus from head-fi I rejoined in 2013 with the HD700s, which appeared to cover all the bases and replaced my HD580/600/ AKG K701s and my beloved Grado SR325is which were surprisingly the worst offenders with regards to grain and impossible for me to listen to after the fact.

The 600/650s are very well balanced and behaved headphones but in direct comparison I found the HD700 and 800/S to be much purer in tone (less grain), we’re not referring to any perceived peaks... but the negative effect of a more proficient driver is that any underlying noise added to the original recorded signal, be it from the source (usually digital noise) or amplification, which would be normally masked by the “inherent grain of the phones” will be more apparent and may be perceived as distortion and possibly not pleasant to listen to.

So I would expect the 660s to have less grain overall than its predecessors, but hopefully retain their balance and behavior. : )

Just to quote myself. Jan 2014

Was listening to Kathleen Battle's album "Grace" this morning on with HD700s and if there was to be any grain to be heard in the treble this recording would have revealed it, but the the extension and purity of her voice hitting those high extended notes was just silky smooth and sublime.

 

[Beagle]

I'm afraid that, compared to the sound of real unamplified instruments and voices, all headphones have significant grain. As does all audio gear, for that matter. How much it is a problem is dependent on your taste and tolerance.

Grain is usually shown as an uneven treble response, especially in the 6-8kHz region

 

[Rob80b]

I'm afraid that, compared to the sound of real unamplified instruments and voices, all headphones have significant grain. As does all audio gear, ........

So true but something we’ve become accustomed to, I’m not too sure how many times a grain free, low distortion speaker or headphone have been labeled as being too analytical and lacking musical nuances.
Now is that the fault of the drivers inability to reproduce all the nuances of the recording venue, for surely if the recording took place in a warm acoustically inviting environment a distortion grain free transducer in theory should be able to retransmit that information or does the innate fault lie in the recording process starting with the microphones which unfortunately are subject to the exact same physical attributes as the speaker and headphone drivers but in reverse.

Life’s complicated and then we die. : ( ... : )

 

[Beagle]

Actually, comparing recorded music to live unamped music (or expecting recorded music to be identical) is an exercise in futility, a quest for perfection that is not there. All microphones are colored, as is the gear they pass the signal through to and back out again. I think the best we can hope for is a believable simulation of the energy and tone/timbre we hear live (which is why I like the B&W P9, even though it is not what many would call 'accurate' or 'neutral').

 

[pietcux]

Today in the office I set out on a crusade to search for GRAIN. First with Beethoven's Violin concert the I went to Gustav Mahler's Symphony #10. No GRAIN so far, only that Mr Mahler's #10 is a showcase for the capabilities of the HD660S. Again balanced from the SONY WM1A. Drums double bass flutes horns violins and what else is playing, very rich, fast deep and powerfull bass, grainless mid to treble, mindblowing experience.

 

[amartignano]

Today in the office I set out on a crusade to search for GRAIN. First with Beethoven's Violin concert the I went to Gustav Mahler's Symphony #10. No GRAIN so far, only that Mr Mahler's #10 is a showcase for the capabilities of the HD660S. Again balanced from the SONY WM1A. Drums double bass flutes horns violins and what else is playing, very rich, fast deep and powerfull bass, grainless mid to treble, mindblowing experience.

Mahler #10, magic more than music.

 

[Rob80b]

Another (positive) review.

"There is no doubt in my mind that the Sennheiser HD 660 S is a brilliant open-back headphone."

https://www.kitguru.net/tech-news/f...c-moass/sennheiser-hd-660-s-headphone-review/

 

[kman1211]

Well just got the HD 660S in today. Haven't even listened to the pair yet. I hope they pair well with the Sony UDA-1.

 

[pietcux]

I compared one song "Silvester Stallone" from Angus and Julia Stone for bass comparison between the HD650 and the HD660S.

The test result is my subjective opinion.

On the HD650 the bass is more of a one note bass very prominent as we know it. Rather undetailed. On the HD660S you have a very nuanced bass, multy tone and thus not prominent, but very nice. The mid bass masks the subbass on the HD650 whereas the subbass is clearly differenciated on the HD660S. Again to me the HD660S is better as the HD650 in all frequency ranges without sacryfying anything that was great on the HD650.

The test was done on the following setups:

1. PC>Asus Xonar STX headphone out > Meier Audio Jazz FF low gain> 6.3mm standard unbalanced cable > HD650/660S
2. Sony WM1A high gain > balanced standard 4.4mm cable > HD650/660S

The differnce is clearly audible on both setups, but even stronger on the mobile setup # 2

 

[DavidA]

Well just got the HD 660S in today. Haven't even listened to the pair yet. I hope they pair well with the Sony UDA-1.

I'm very interested in how the HD660S sounds to you since you seem to have similar impressions to me with what I've read of your post in the various thread.