[FullBright1]

So, after implying there is only a "3%" difference between the HD650 and, to use your example, a Stax 009, you then cannot understand why the 650 has been lingering on the market so long? Plus, a 15 year life-span is not so long in audio, considering how great a market there is for things like vintage equipment, NOS tubes, etc., or the fact that the standard for audio quality for encoding was set in 1979.

But, you don't actually seem interested in listening to anyone, as you parse others' words uncharitably, argue against strawmen, and stoop to insults to bolster your point.

[Modified by Mod[

In the world of pro and most other reviews, the 650, is loved and hated., but its a product that IS good enough to keep around, so, they are satisfied to sit on their hands at the Senn company and make nothing else for many years other then the awful first edition Momentum.
However, its the HD600, that is their universally adored benchmark whereas the 650, is the kept in the backfield person stepchild with a bottom that is too big for most to love.
Of these 3 headphones....the 600, and the 650, and the 660S, the 650, is in 3rd place.
Its on the track, but it was lapped years ago, and now its newest sibling is eating its lunch and taking names.
Not my fault.
Just a fact.

 

[Anarion]

I am often puzzled by Tyll's conclusions. The 560 review is an example of that, but more to the point, I wonder how much his review of the 660S relies on nostalgia for the 650? I've seen more than one review (his might be among them) that stated outright that if it weren't for previous experience with the 650 the 660S would have rated higher. Not to doubt anyone's integrity here, but I wonder if there is a real concern about expectation bias.

He's a human being. I'm almost certain that he expected something a bit different and that the his fondness towards HD 600 may affect his opinion a bit. I'd imagine that Sennheiser wouldn't release new HD 600 family member without a good reason. Judging by the price and number they seem to think themselves that it's an improvement. Improvements and price do not go linearly hand in hand though, so the value for money can be a bit...

 

[bobbyblack]

I did do a comparison of the HD 660 S and Amiron Home a few months back.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...view-and-brief-comparison-amiron-home.869944/

Nice review and comparison,thanks.

 

[FullBright1]

But the HD600 is currently on the wall of fame and the HE560 is not.

Yes, and if you read my last post, you'll discover that I stated that the 600 is Senn's benchmark (H6) series Can.
But, there is a definitive caveat, regarding this headphone.
So, let me explain it to those who dont understand what is "UP" with this headphone, regarding WHY its still around.

You have to understand the context of this Headphone's staying power.

This headphone has been around a very long time.
It was created at a time, when we didn't have a "head-fi" forum, and at a time when the idea of headphone listening was not the worldwide obsession you find today.
So, it was sort of the first great one out there, which means its enjoyed a very long head start on all the others.
And because it was the FIRST great one, it's Legendary and Iconic because of this, as well as because it sounds really good.
Win + Win.
So, when you have the first of something, that becomes legendary, then you have decades of hype and reviews that are miles thick that keep it going., keep it Alive.
The fact is, .. this headphone is now the Stradivarius of "audiophile" headphones, YET, its not because its still the best sounding, but because its the first great one of its kind, at that time.
So, this mountain of hype that was created all these years regarding it, keeps this bad boy in the game., and THAT is why its still the "go to" if you are brand new to this audiophile arena.
You literally will be directed to it, if you are not familiar with headphones and IF you have become mentally stuck with "i want an audiophile" product.
The internet will ONLY lead you directly to the Senn HD600,
Thats a fact, and Senn is so very happy about this that they keep on making it while taking forever and a day, to finally create the HD660S.

Part 11 of this is simple..........If this headphone was created in 2018, it would not be on Tyll's wall, and it would not necessarily be a headphone that everyone has owned or wants if you are new to this addictive game of chasing the "best" sound.

So, yeah, its great, but its great because its kinda lke a 1969 Chevelle SS.
Everybody who $$$$$$$ collects "muscle cars" wants this "great" Legend., as its a great looking car, but, if you compare it to even a 2018 Kia as regarding performance, ride, comfort, AC, QC, all of this, then its a fail in 2018.
But , because its a LEGEND from the Past, it has the same intrinsic (built in) marketing desirability as the Senn HD600, and for exactly the same reason.

 

[Rob80b]

Yes, and if you read my last post, you'll discover that I stated that the 600 is Senn's benchmark (H6) series Can.
But, there is a definitive caveat, regarding this headphone.
...............

So, yeah, its great, but its great because its kinda lke a 1969 Camaro SS.
........

I always felt my 580/600s were more in line to a classic pair of Advent speakers I had in the 70s...easy and somewhat musically satisfying but I'd never give up the dynamics and clarity of my current Dynaudio Special 25s, same applies to my HD800S.
The 660S IMHO were/are a much needed face lift on the classic but again won't compete with it brethren 800S...but I could and have lived with them.

 

[donlin]

I always felt my 580/600s were more in line to a classic pair of Advent speakers I had in the 70s...easy and somewhat musically satisfying but I'd never give up the dynamics and clarity of my current Dynaudio Special 25s, same applies to my HD800S.
The 660S IMHO were/are a much needed face lift on the classic but again won't compete with it brethren 800S...but I could and have lived with them.

Hi Rob, I was at Axpona here in Chicago a couple weeks ago and it was slow at the Sennheiser booth on Friday. I was able to spend a lot of time comparing the HD800S, HD660S and the new HD820. I thought the 800S sounded quite a bit better than the closed 820. They were selling things at a nice discount and I impulse bought a new HD800S after not hearing one for almost two years. It really is an amazingly good phone and my current favorite again. The HD660S stands up well against it though.

 

[FullBright1]

I always felt my 580/600s were more in line to a classic pair of Advent speakers I had in the 70s...easy and somewhat musically satisfying but I'd never give up the dynamics and clarity of my current Dynaudio Special 25s, same applies to my HD800S.
The 660S IMHO were/are a much needed face lift on the classic but again won't compete with it brethren 800S...but I could and have lived with them.

-
I love Dyns.
I use the original BM5s as one of my sets of studio monitors with Focals being the other.

And, its maybe trying to stretch the HD660s unfairly out of proportion to compare them to the 800S, which are a Masterstroke of sound quality, and im so glad they upgraded and fixed that treble spike thingy, mostly.

 

[DavidA]

Pleth,

I was rolling along with ya till you said......>"I dont mind them taking so long".....
Really?.. omg.
...You actually like to wait for years for such a product as this to show up, after the 600 and 650 were already top notch and this one is better but not 2x better.....just "improved"?
What if you are 60 yrs old....should you have to wait till you are 72, for Senn to create their next slight upgrade?
See, life is subjective like that, and , if you are at one end of it, then waiting is not so bad, but if you are at the other end of it, you'll likely be dead before Senn creates the HD665Z
Thats not right.

And how can you actually believe that this is a HD700 upgrade.
I could see your point as valid, if the chassis or the ear cup was the HD700, but this is clearly not that one by design
And also, the HD700 actually sounds nothing like the HD6 series, and that includes the 660S.

If I was SENN, I would discontinue and pull the HD700 from the catalog as its the "3rd wheel" in their lineup, and instead create a killer $5-800 S-Planar, as everyone would want this one.
The fact is, if you are a headphone company that is very established, and you are not creating a secondary line of Planar headphones 5 yrs ago, then your head is not in the game.
Unless, they have a Planar?.....If so, please point me in that direction as I have the money and I'll have it shipped overnight and tell you the day after tomorrow if its great.
np.

Everyone has their own preferences and to me the HD700 is better than the HD660S or any of the 6 hundred series for some genres, playing games and watching movies.

I'd also have to agree with @phthora that waiting is not an issue for me also since there are a lot of other headphones out there that I like better than the HD660S since they each have their own unique presentation of a track and for the way that my GF and I listen we are constantly changing headphones during listening sessions.

 

[SilverEars]

@DavidA

I know you have said in the past that HD660S doesn't scale as well as the HD650 when it comes to amping. Between the two, there are sigificant impedance response differences with 660S being half the total impedance of the 650. And you state you use tube amps. Are they OTL amps you use? If this is the case, 650 will be more stable than the 660S if there is significant output impedance. I don't know if you can be sure if one scales better than the other if the amp's output impedance and the headphone's impedance response have an effect on the response.

A fair way to compare is using an amp that both headphones does not get effected by the amp's output impedance.

 

[FullBright1]

Everyone has their own preferences and to me the HD700 is better than the HD660S or any of the 6 hundred series for some genres,

hey DA.

Do you actually own the HD660S?

 

[DavidA]

@DavidA

I know you have said in the past that HD660S doesn't scale as well as the HD650 when it comes to amping. Between the two, there are sigificant impedance response differences with 660S being half the total impedance of the 650. And you state you use tube amps. Are they OTL amps you use? If this is the case, 650 will be more stable than the 660S if there is significant output impedance. I don't know if you can be sure if one scales better than the other if the amp's output impedance and the headphone's impedance response have an effect on the response.

A fair way to compare is using an amp that both headphones does not get effected by the amp's output impedance.

Due to the differences in impedance between the HD650 and HD660S I feel that there is no "fair" way to compare on a single amp since a higher output impedance would benefit the HD650 while a lower output impedance would benefit the HD660S. This is why for those that don't want to bother with tubes the HD660S would be a better choice (but over priced IMO) while those like me that have a decent OTL amp I'd still recommend the HD650 or HD6XX, but choice of tubes needs to be considered since some combination of tubes in the BH Crack can make the HD650 a warm bloody mess that I didn't like and it was similar with a WA3 and Liquid Carbon (can't remember what tubes were used) but both made the HD650 overly warm with muddy bass.

As for the HD660S not scaling much these are what I'd consider some of the better amps that we tried: Elise, Icon HP-8 mk2, MicroZOTL2, HA-501, MHA-100, Dark Star, GSX-mk2, and Liquid Carbon (did some tube rolling with all of the tube amps) None really stood as a clear improvement in sound over a Fiio X5iii or LG V30 phone unlike the HD650 which is quite easy to hear the difference from X5iii and LG V30 to my BH Crack, MicroZOTL2 and Icon HP-8 mk2 but best I've heard a HD650 was with a friends Liquid Glass.

And yes I mainly use a BH Crack for the HD650 but with TS5998 or WE421a power tubes which I'm told lowers the output impedance to around 60-75 ohms versus the 120 ohms of most 6080 tubes. I also usually use a Telefunken 12AU7 as a driver tubes since its one of the cleanest sounding tubes I've heard so far. My Ember with its adjustable output impedance makes hearing the effect of impedance changes a great way to see how a headphone reacts to changes in an amps output impedance and why I'd usually recommend a Ember or other Garage 1217 amp due to this ability.

@FullBright1, no I don't own a HD660S but have borrowed them from a friend a few times over the past 4-6 months.

 

[phthora]

@FullBright1 I know you believe your pool of audio experience to be wide, deep, and constantly evolving (I believe that is how you phrased it), but @DavidA is the ****ing ocean.

 

[FullBright1]

@FullBright1 I know you believe your pool of audio experience to be wide, deep, and constantly evolving (I believe that is how you phrased it), but @DavidA is the ****ing ocean.

Really?
I hadn't noticed.
And after what he just decided to do, i would conclude that his " Ocean" has been at a very low tide for quite a while.

The good news is, that based on your detailed information yesterday, i did pull the Trigger.
Thx again..

And today has been a great day of 660S splendor.
Ive posted a lot of videos today and yesterday over on the "Music" thread, and have just been "caught up" in the wonder of listening to them all again using the sublime and enchanting HD660S.
So, whomever it was around here, who suggested that i post my Youtube videos on THAT page, .........i just wanted to say" thank you" for alerting me to the fact that there is such a place here..
Its fun

 

[SP Wild]

-
I love Dyns.
I use the original BM5s as one of my sets of studio monitors with Focals being the other.

And, its maybe trying to stretch the HD660s unfairly out of proportion to compare them to the 800S, which are a Masterstroke of sound quality, and im so glad they upgraded and fixed that treble spike thingy, mostly.

Almost fixed the treble spike of the HD800...relieved the symtoms, but did not cure. Relieved enough for me to be able to hear the drawback of these K701/HD800 cup design styles. An upper mid resonance cavity. Made the K701 sound a tad tinny, which Senheisser tried to fix by pulling back the uppermids. Allowing for the resonance to fill in with a form of artificial ambiance where the real information is pulled back and replaced with fake information...faked soundstage. The treble spike necessary in order to supplement, with the help of the cavity resonance, the missing top end...thereby creating a psychoacoustically 'neutralish' signature. Fake neutral...where the truth is actually quite wonky.

This is why Orpheus ! and Orpheus 2 has a housing design just like the HD6-- series. And why we can thank Senheisser for saving the tube amplifier.

P.S. The HD800S is still a bloody good headphone and I listen to and enjoy my one immensely. They bring me great joy everytime and no other headphone of mine can come close to what it does oh so well.

 

[Lonely Shepherd]

Having followed this thread from day one I can honestly say that it's now ruined and has degenerated into a platform for one person's egotistical rantings, said person has even somehow managed to get on the wrong side of one of the most respected contributors to a number of threads I've followed over the years, DavidA. Thanks a bunch.