[metal571]

Since we're on the topic of 800 vs 800S...I bought my 800 and not the 800S because I knew I was going to EQ it like crazy. The 800S's bass definitely wouldn't be the kind of thing I would want to be boosting, with measurements like these and Tyll's. Tyll made a good point in his 800S review IIRC saying that if you want to EQ the 800, get the 800 and not the 800S. If you think the 800 needs just a bit more bass and not a whole lot more, and don't want to EQ anything or modify the headphone, that's where the 800S comes in. I'd agree...but the decision was obvious for me. Spending an extra 500 dollars for potentially less bass quality wasn't going to be the way I went. Still love the 800 - it's my daily at home. The only thing that has come close so far that I've heard to dethroning it was an HE1000V1 (again equalized, but not as drastically as the 800). Oh lordy lordy did that thing sound good, but also retailed for twice the price. Haven't tried the V2, Susvara, Edition X, X V2, etc though.

 

[headr]

Wouldn't it be better to boost bass on a headphone which has the lowest THD in the bass region?

I will refer people to the measurements taken here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...r-for-the-hd650.862308/page-120#post-13932920

The meme that "the HD 800 S has unacceptable bass distortion" can probably die now. It has lower distortion compared to the HD 800, and as such should respond much better to EQ.

If you prefer the sound of higher bass distortion being EQ'd higher, that is your call, but pretending that the HD 800 S has more wonkiess measurements has been objectively disproven.

 

[metal571]

Wouldn't it be better to boost bass on a headphone which has the lowest THD in the bass region?

I will refer people to the measurements taken here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...r-for-the-hd650.862308/page-120#post-13932920

The meme that "the HD 800 S has unacceptable bass distortion" can probably die now. It has lower distortion compared to the HD 800, and as such should respond much better to EQ.

If you prefer the sound of higher bass distortion being EQ'd higher, that is your call, but pretending that the HD 800 S has more wonkiess measurements has been objectively disproven.

Am I crazy or am I the only one reading this graph and seeing that the 800S has clearly higher bass distortion? 800S is the *dashed black line*

 

[pietcux]

Tyll listens first and evaluates measurements as a secondary concern (unlike many people here). He really liked the HD 800 S and was harsh on them in the review mainly due to the high price which necessitates higher standards.

The Sonoma Model One electrostatic also had a myriad problem with measurements and objective results, yet it shiningly sits on the wall of fame just below the peerless Stax 009.

If you think Tyll is going to disqualify a headphone just because of some measurement wonkiness, you don't know him as a reviewer (not to mention most of the time, the "measurement wonkiness" is just an artificial artifact of the measurement process).

If anything, someone entering this thread and saying "I'm surprised Tyll let this headphone on the wall of fame with the bass distortion" is an indication that YOU and not Tyll, are taking measurements far too seriously.

This is not the Tyll Hertsens review discussion, this is a thread for people who want to discuss about the Sennheiser HD660S headphone.

 

[pietcux]

Am I crazy or am I the only one reading this graph and seeing that the 800S has clearly higher bass distortion? 800S is the *dashed black line*

No, but it is only very small increase on a low THD of the HD800.

 

[jude]

Wouldn't it be better to boost bass on a headphone which has the lowest THD in the bass region?

I will refer people to the measurements taken here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...r-for-the-hd650.862308/page-120#post-13932920

The meme that "the HD 800 S has unacceptable bass distortion" can probably die now. It has lower distortion compared to the HD 800, and as such should respond much better to EQ.

If you prefer the sound of higher bass distortion being EQ'd higher, that is your call, but pretending that the HD 800 S has more wonkiess measurements has been objectively disproven.

Sorry we're still off-topic here (in an HD660S thread), but I wanted to offer a quick clarification: The Sennheiser HD800S is showing (in the measurements I posted) as having slightly higher bass distortion than the HD800, but there's nothing about either (based on those measurements, and, more importantly, based on my own experience EQ'ing them) that would discourage me from using an equalizer with the HD800 and HD800S.

To be clear, in my opinion, both have very low measured THD for electrodynamic headphones, and the graph showing the THD at 100 dBSPL (at 1kHz) shows that at higher output levels (or what I certainly hope are higher output levels than you guys would be listening at), the measure bass THD is still low for both.

My opinion? EQ freely with either, and enjoy. I do. If you watched our Schiit Audio Loki Mini video, I said turn the knobs until it sounds right to you, not until it measures right. That said, we did include measurements of the Loki to show the frequency and effect range of each of its knobs.

This brings me to an interview with Sennheiser's Axel Grell that was on Massdrop. When asked "What kind of testing gear and procedures do you use?" Axel replied:

Ears! Ears! Ears! Listening sessions. Audio Precision stuff, starting with System One up to their newest analyzers. Klippel measurement systems. B&K measurement microphones, artificial ears, and dummy heads. Anechoic chambers, diffuse sound fields, laser vibrometers, and a lot more.

Also, when asked "Any advice for aspiring audio engineers?" he said:

Trust your ears!

With that, we should probably get back on topic, guys.

 

[donlin]

Sorry we're still off-topic here (in an HD660S thread), but I wanted to offer a quick clarification: The Sennheiser HD800S is showing (in the measurements I posted) as having slightly higher bass distortion than the HD800, but there's nothing about either (based on those measurements, and, more importantly, based on my own experience EQ'ing them) that would discourage me from using an equalizer with the HD800 and HD800S.

To be clear, in my opinion, both have very low measured THD for electrodynamic headphones, and the graph showing the THD at 100 dBSPL (at 1kHz) shows that at higher output levels (or what I certainly hope are higher output levels than you guys would be listening at), the measure bass THD is still low for both.

My opinion? EQ freely with either, and enjoy. I do. If you watched our Schiit Audio Loki Mini video, I said turn the knobs until it sounds right to you, not until it measures right. That said, we did include measurements of the Loki to show the frequency and effect range of each of its knobs.

This brings me to an interview with Sennheiser's Axel Grell that was on Massdrop. When asked "What kind of testing gear and procedures do you use?" Axel replied:


Also, when asked "Any advice for aspiring audio engineers?" he said:

With that, we should probably get back on topic, guys.

I agree with Axel Grell, this mania for measurements that has taken hold in head-fi is very unfortunate. Personally, I wouldn’t mind never seeing another graph.

 

[Charles E Flynn]

Focal are doing some interesting things in the headphone space but don't oversell it. They've only focused on audiophile headphones for a little over a year, and their efforts are fairly polarising. The Utopia is not exactly universally praised, and the Elear is a very acquired taste. All in all, Focal, despite some promising early developments, are total rookies in the headphone game, and have no where near the decades long universally praised success of products such as the HD 600, HD 650, HD 580, and so on.

I wish them luck, and the more options the better from a consumer perspective, but Sennheiser is the 600 lb gorilla in this space. The high end market isn't as different as you think. Sennheiser has dealt with Sony's Z1R, Audio Technica's Leatherheads, Sony's R10, Sony's Qualia 010. Sennheiser's flagships tend to outlast them all. Focal may be riding a few hype trains at the moment, but will they even still be making headphones in 5-10 years? Not sure. Sennheiser however? No doubt about it.

Just my thoughts.

In a few months, Sennheiser may be a 660 lb. gorilla.

 

[ubs28]

Going a bit off-topic. But even "mid-fi" IEM's like the $350 Shure SE535 have very low bass distortion. So considering the price tag of the HD 800 S, the THD is on the high side. For the HD 650 it is fine since it only costs $320.

But the THD of the HD 800 S was intentional as Sennheiser is not capable offering a linear bass extension on their open back dynamics, so they tried to artificially boost the bass region by adding harmonic distortion to the headphone. It is not the ideal solution but it works as I did notice some added thickness in the lower bass regions before measurements were available.

There is an other headphone which does this trick, which is the Shure SRH 1840. If you look at the frequency response, then you would think it is very bass light. Somehow the high THD gives it alot more bass than the frequency response would suggest.

So given the design constraints Sennheiser has, the high THD (it is high for a high-end headphone) is acceptable to me as it was a design choice with a clear purpose (of faking more bass).

 

[jude]

It seems we may not be getting back on topic just yet then.

Going a bit off-topic. But even "mid-fi" IEM's like the $350 Shure SE535 have very low bass distortion. So considering the price tag of the HD 800 S, the THD is on the high side. For the HD 650 it is fine since it only costs $320.

Have you looked at the THD measurements I posted on the previous page? (LINK) Off the top of my head I can’t think of too many electrodynamic open-back headphones (not made by Focal) that have the combination of low bass extension and low bass THD that these Sennheisers have. Again, look at the Y-axis scale on both the 90 dBSPL and 100 dBSPL plots. I’m just trying to understand the “high side” THD assessment.

...But the THD of the HD 800 S was intentional as Sennheiser is not capable offering a linear bass extension on their open back dynamics, so they tried to artificially boost the bass region by adding harmonic distortion to the headphone. It is not the ideal solution but it works as I did notice some added thickness in the lower bass regions before measurements were available...

I've seen this suggested before, but I'm not sure what the origins of this explanation are.

Look at the measurements I posted. Any increase in harmonic distortion is minor (HD800S versus HD800), and I haven't seen anything in our distortion product ratio plots that support this theory. Further, when I brought up this topic with Axel Grell in London (at CanJam) after having measured both headphones on the GRAS 45BB-12 (with similar results), he was not surprised. There was no deliberate distortion added. When I asked him how they achieved the difference in sound signatures, he smiled (and that's as far as I'll comment on that).

Again, I'm not sure how this theory started in the first place, let alone how it has gotten repeat play enough to be accepted as fact.

 

[headr]

Thanks for clarifying and furthering the discussion Jude. On Christmas Eve no less. Nothing quite like some rum & eggnog, and some spirited headphone audio banter.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[franz12]

You simply got used to the new sound. Infact at first you preferred the headphone you were used to, the 800S. For me there's no way a closed headphone can replace my 800S. Too close to the average real thing I hear in the concert hall.

Poor 660S, we (me first) must speak more about them in their thread.

Nope. I had both at the same time. And I bought hd800s first.

 

[phoneitin]

Sonarworks has a quick review with measurements of the 660 S: https://sonarworks.com/blog/studio-headphone-review-sennheiser-hd660-s/

 

[amartignano]

Nope. I had both at the same time. And I bought hd800s first.

Exactly Merry Xmas!

 

[amartignano]

Sonarworks has a quick review with measurements of the 660 S: https://sonarworks.com/blog/studio-headphone-review-sennheiser-hd660-s/

Never speak about music/sound. It's only some badly done measurements and deriving mainly wrong conclusions from them. Not do defend the 660S, which is not my definitive cup of tea, but this is really weird "review".