Sennheiser HD650 vs. Stax 2020 Basic System: a comparison

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle Well, this is not incorrect in that an electrostatic diaphragm moves/vibrates evenly whereas a dynamic tends to kinda ripple from middle to side or vise versa.

This is not accurate (downright misleading as a matter of fact) as I pointed out in another post.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marios_mar Isnt that what SONY themselves call their own R10?? I really do not think all of the people here have owned and tried good dynamics and electrostats and lots of people here just like to ridicule Mike. You might disagree with his views and the way he poses them as well as the he way he does or does not answer but I think some of you are acting a 100 times worse than what you think Mike acts like. You can say all sorts of things politely. Do not insult please. I really think this is nasty behavior.

Before you start throwing stones you might actually read the comment I was replying to, which I quoted in my post, it had nothing to do with Mike. It was meant as a humorous attempt to show Snake that there are also companies producing their "statement" products using dynamics. And yes I was referring to the R10 which Sony calls the "king" but also many people actually think it deserves the title just like many others believe the O2's or the Orpheus are it. Sorry if that was lost on you.

 

[marios_mar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero Before you start throwing stones you might actually read the comment I was replying to, which I quoted in my post, it had nothing to do with Mike. It was meant as a humorous attempt to show Snake that there are also companies producing their "statement" products using dynamics. And yes I was referring to the R10 which Sony calls the "king" but also many people actually think it deserves the title just like many others believe the O2's or the Orpheus are it. Sorry if that was lost on you.

The first part of my post was just a misunderstanding of your own. I didnt undestand it was a joke sorry. Probably I read Snake's comment afterwards.

Anyhow the rest of the stuff I wrote have NOTHING to do with your post it. SO in this case you misunderstood me.

 

[zeplin]

Marios-
Again, those of us who are getting tired of Mike have perfectly good reasons to do so. I talk to people every single solitary day on this board that have completely different opinions about headphones than I have. But they don't obviously say it the way Mike does. There have been countless civil conversations about differing opinions, dynamic vs. electro stats, and the physics behind headphone making. And most of those conversations never get to the level of having one person piss so many people off at once. Obviously there is something wrong here. Somewhere along the line, someone here is swaying from the way the majority of people hold conversations around here. And believe you me that a polite and civil approach was taken in the begginging with Mike...it alwasy is. He just refuses to keep it that way. Not every conversation and discussion on this board can be discussed in a hunky dory, softy, politically correct, or polite sort of way like you would want them to be...or like we would all like it be. That is a fantacy-land kind of notion and you know that it just can't happen that way sometimes. With happyness come anger. And with open-minded people comes closed-minded people. It will always be that way. There comes a point where *killing people with kindness* just doesn't work anymore. Anways, you get the point. No one is here to pick Mike out from a crowd just to push him around for the hell of it. He brought/brings it on himself and he knows it (he always does). If you don't think so, please go back and read this thread in addition to every other thread Mike has participated in on this website throughout his existence here. It never seems to change with him and I'm getting the impression that it never will. Considering the ways in which he holds conversations around here, I am surprized that people like you don't notice that his way of communicating is cleary and intentionally meant to bring on flame wars, which is the exact defintion of being a troll. And anytime someone acts like that (trollish behavior), they're usually banded, and I don't know why Mike hasn't been baned yet??? But I'm guessing it will be done soon or at least sometime in the future.

That would do this site very well and remove some of bitterness that exists for him, which sometimes carries over to other things...and we all know that that is never good (i.e. TIO forum)! Anyways, I'm done. You again (I hope) get my point. Happy listening

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marios_mar The first part of my post was just a misunderstanding of your own. I didnt undestand it was a joke sorry. Probably I read Snake's comment afterwards. Anyhow the rest of the stuff I wrote have NOTHING to do with your post it. SO in this case you misunderstood me.

It's pretty hard not to misunderstand when you quote me and then proceed with a chastising post. There is a lot to be said for clarity. If it wasn't directed at me then you should have made that clear or not have quoted me in the post at all.

 

[marios_mar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero It's pretty hard not to misunderstand when you quote me and then proceed with a chastising post. There is a lot to be said for clarity. If it wasn't directed at me then you should have made that clear or not have quoted me in the post at all.

geez elnero!!! I was talking about insults. You only wrote one sentence that had nothing to do with an insult. How come you thought I was reffering to you?



zeplin I cannot argue with you since I have not been following mike's posts.

anyhow i just did not like the way he is treated. i thought that he received insults (personal ones) without insulting anyone himself. that is for this thread. i have not followed his posts as I have mentioned.

still i disagree that even people who are narrow minded (based on your assumptions on Mike because I do not know his character nor do i remember his posts) or think that only their opinion counts must be treated with anger. this way it will only get worse. if these people are ignored or being killed with kindness (your expression that is) then they might realise what they do wrong without building up anger against all the others. IMO this will not work either and will only result in big 5 page posts that have nothing to do with the original topic.


When one insults or disrespects another person's view is completely different and insulting the person himself.

I do not like eye for eye behavior not to mention head for an eye.

Mike cannot accept that dynamics are better than electrostats in ANYTHING. That is his view. Maybe it is narrowminded but why do you care so much? Just tell him that he is wrong in your opinion.

Now if he insulted you by saying that you know jack s@## about it (not only within this topic) then I can see where you are coming from.

 

[dj_mocok]

seems like he (mike) hasnt posted yet... hope he's not discouraged to post..
its kinda fun to read this debate... (minus the abuse)

i only regret that some members who got nothing to do with mike or are not directly involved in the debate suddenly came out of nowhere and saying bad stuff towards him..
thats kinda childish.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Actually, he is banned - temporarily. A mod decided to take action four days ago. There are still over three days left in the ban.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeplin And anytime someone acts like that (trollish behavior), they're usually banded, and I don't know why Mike hasn't been baned yet??? But I'm guessing it will be done soon or at least sometime in the future. That would do this site very well and remove some of bitterness that exists for him, which sometimes carries over to other things...and we all know that that is never good (i.e. TIO forum)!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_mocok seems like he (mike) hasnt posted yet... hope he's not discouraged to post.. its kinda fun to read this debate... (minus the abuse)

 

[Geek]

Is the treble shimmer something you'd find in real life? I've heard several electrostats (the only one I haven't heard is the Stax Omega II, but I've heard the Orpheus and a variety of other Stax models) and they all share an etchy coloration in the treble energy which shouldn't be present in real life or on the recording; this etch disappears with the DT880, HD600, and HD650 when used with a headroom blockhead or max.

I'm not saying your review is misguided whatsoever; what you hear as a clear, shimmery high end I have heard in other electrostats as simply a coloration in the treble energy which drives me insane. I can't bear to listen to an electrostatic headphone for more than about 30 minutes before I have to take a little break (this was worst with the orpheus, which also had very light lower bass, confirmed by headroom measurements).

I suppose it is a matter of preference, the HD650 does have very smooth treble and doesn't emphasize it; the rest of your review does a good job of describing the 650s very well. I'm just really sensitive to highs, I guess.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[Snake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geek Is the treble shimmer something you'd find in real life? I've heard several electrostats (the only one I haven't heard is the Stax Omega II, but I've heard the Orpheus and a variety of other Stax models) and they all share an etchy coloration in the treble energy which shouldn't be present in real life or on the recording; this etch disappears with the DT880, HD600, and HD650 when used with a headroom blockhead or max. I'm not saying your review is misguided whatsoever; what you hear as a clear, shimmery high end I have heard in other electrostats as simply a coloration in the treble energy which drives me insane. I can't bear to listen to an electrostatic headphone for more than about 30 minutes before I have to take a little break (this was worst with the orpheus, which also had very light lower bass, confirmed by headroom measurements). I suppose it is a matter of preference, the HD650 does have very smooth treble and doesn't emphasize it; the rest of your review does a good job of describing the 650s very well. I'm just really sensitive to highs, I guess. Cheers, Geek

Indeed possible. Also break in hours, charge time and overall system synergy are very important in all high end electrostatic systems, the Stax simply showing this clearly. And I have a lot of experience in that. I believe Marios will vouch for both break in and charge phenomenon - I will not speak for him but I believe he can indeed speak of his NOS L-P's changing character during their (very) extended break in period (OK, OK, Stax DO need lots of hours) and then charge up during regular use.

Electrostats have a certain sound. Always have, always will. It is NOT a warm sound, which a lot of people find attractive. From Maggies, to Quads, to Martin-Logans, to Stax to even early Infinity's with EMIT / EMIM's the sound is very up front. Some like it, some don't. And YES, I have heard ALL of those systems - from selling to listening, from ESL-63's to EMIT's to Monoliths to 404's to others. Some I liked, some I didn't; for instance Quads, for me, were nice but still an acquired taste. I wish I could have heard the Stax loudspeakers when they were still available (even though I was a dealer we never had them (although I tried!!

).

Quote:

Actually, he is banned - temporarily. A mod decided to take action four days ago. There are still over three days left in the ban

How typical. One person says something which gets others riled up...and only a single person gets banned. So much for "unilateral" and "It takes two to tango".

Thanks Marios

Good hearing your thoughts.

Regarding all.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marios_mar geez elnero!!! I was talking about insults. You only wrote one sentence that had nothing to do with an insult. How come you thought I was reffering to you?

Could it be because you quoted me in your post?

Anyway, I'm not mad about it or anything, I just wanted to point out that it's a good idea to be clear in who your responding to.

As far as Mike goes maybe you should do a bit of research. He's been nothing more than a troll since he first came to Head-Fi, he's thrown many an insult at numerous people. I've taken to just ignoring him or reading his silliness and getting a laugh out of it but others are obviously still trying to get through to him for whatever reason but I think most are starting to realize that by feeding the troll he's only going to continue posting his drivel.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake ...It is NOT a warm sound, which a lot of people find attractive. From Maggies, to Quads, to Martin-Logans, to Stax to even early Infinity's with EMIT / EMIM's the sound is very up front... ...How typical. One person says something which gets others riled up...and only a single person gets banned. So much for "unilateral" and "It takes two to tango"...

Two things Snake...
1. Maggies, & EMIT/EMIMs and NOT electrostatic drivers. They're electromagnetic dynamic planar drivers, and the tweeter in the upper end Maggies is an electromagnetic dynamic ribbon.

I would characterize Maggies as having a warm but tending to neutral sound. I have owned two pair.

2. Mike was not banned for "saying something" that riled some others up.
You and he are more than welcome to your opinions and welcome to express them.

Let's keep the FACTS straight.

Thanks,

 

[Snake]

I know that Maggies, EMIT and EMIM's are not electrostats, but are planars designed to create a similar, bi-polar soundstage. The same, yet different.

Or, different yet the same. Can't decide which. The point was just planar / electros because of their operating technique.

I don't know, I wouldn't call Maggies warm. Compared to truly "warm" dynamics the Maggies are more neutral than that. I am used to "warm" implying much more.

Thank you for the reply. The problem is that we don't know the "facts" of why he was banned, exactly. So I guess discretion is called for. But still, in a fight - or words, thoughts or physicality - there are always at least 2 contenders.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake I don't know, I wouldn't call Maggies warm. Compared to truly "warm" dynamics the Maggies are more neutral than that. I am used to "warm" implying much more. Thank you for the reply. The problem is that we don't know the "facts" of why he was banned, exactly. So I guess discretion is called for. But still, in a fight - or words, thoughts or physicality - there are always at least 2 contenders.

Well put!
I agree, the Maggies don't have any "boxy" coloration to them even though the smaller ones do have a small mid-bass bump, I find it less objectionable than the colorations in many conventional boxed designs. Keep in mind that any open back headphone is a bipolar radiator like the Maggies. More correctly as used in the headphone application, they're more properly characterized as infinite baffle designs since the rear radiation of the driver has little effect on the overall sound as perceived by the listener and for practical purposes, it "thrown away" rather than processed.

RE a fight... Yes it usually takes two to tango, but often, one is the aggressor, and the other takes the defensive role. Mike was most often the aggressor by his choice of words and "trollish" posturing.

 

[marios_mar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake Indeed possible. Also break in hours, charge time and overall system synergy are very important in all high end electrostatic systems, the Stax simply showing this clearly. And I have a lot of experience in that. I believe Marios will vouch for both break in and charge phenomenon - I will not speak for him but I believe he can indeed speak of his NOS L-P's changing character during their (very) extended break in period (OK, OK, Stax DO need lots of hours) and then charge up during regular use. Electrostats have a certain sound. Always have, always will. It is NOT a warm sound, which a lot of people find attractive. From Maggies, to Quads, to Martin-Logans, to Stax to even early Infinity's with EMIT / EMIM's the sound is very up front. Some like it, some don't. And YES, I have heard ALL of those systems - from selling to listening, from ESL-63's to EMIT's to Monoliths to 404's to others. Some I liked, some I didn't; for instance Quads, for me, were nice but still an acquired taste. I wish I could have heard the Stax loudspeakers when they were still available (even though I was a dealer we never had them (although I tried!! ). How typical. One person says something which gets others riled up...and only a single person gets banned. So much for "unilateral" and "It takes two to tango". Thanks Marios Good hearing your thoughts. Regarding all.

Yep, burning in the STAX is actually very noticable.

The warm up is a must as well but on my Lambdas it shouldnt take too long.

The Lambdas are really amazing headphones. Their treble is indeed attenuated. This way if you want to turn up the volume and get the body and slam and impact that dynamics give you have to withstand loud (not shrilling) highs. I haven't tried replacement cables to deal with that and I have a feeling I should do so before giving up on them.

The STAX also became the top class component in my system leading the way to new upgrades namely the sources.

This thread had a lot of people say that the HD650s can provide equal amount of detail to the Lambdas. Someone also said that the attenuated highs are what most people mistake for detail IIRC. What is the real deal with detail and electrostatics.

And Snake's point about SENNHEISER having their top of the line headphones be electrostatics really shows something doesnt it? They do know better than us don't they?

So what is that led them to use this technology for their showcase products?