[Solrighal]

  People believe headphones will sound better with burn in and so that is what magically happens--they are perceived to sound better. Accordingly, people tend to attribute a multitude of positive sound changes to mechanical burn in, which are better explained by psychoacoustics, environment, diet, etc.  My answer to question no. 2 is only with respect to actual mechanical changes. Your AKG example is not applicable because you are talking about fatigue or evolution of preference, not burn in. Are you really saying that the Q701 sounds great for the first dozen hours or so then turns to crap because of burn in? Of course you aren't, because nobody thinks that about any headphone. Your example is kind of ironic, too, because the AKG K701 is famous for "needing" hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of burn in to sound great or develop bass presence.
 
Edit: Also, I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone nor do I mean any offense to you @Solrighal. This is just my take on the subject! On second thought, maybe the Q701 example is more appropos than ironic! Just needed to hang in there another 1000 hours or so 

 
Be honest, you didn't actually read my post, did you?

 

[Rob80b]

Break-in with headphones is very plausible considering that the driver is an electrical mechanical device consisting of a malleable membrane, which is attached to a voice coil, which is in constant motion when in use causing the membrane to produce sound waves through vibrations. While the vibrations may appear small and inconsequential, same for the heat generated, these do change the molecular structure of the parts and their interaction with each other so that over time, how quickly or slowly is to be determined, will effect how the sound waves are reproduced.

 
A newer, therefore “stiffer” diaphragm/voice coil could indeed produce undesired spurious vibrations, especial in the highs, which could be perceived as annoying/harsh upon first listening, a new less malleable diaphragm may also not travel an adequate distance to reproduce the appropriate base signals. I found this to be the case the HD700s so that after a few hours of use the undesired sound “fresh” out the box had dissipated and I’m discovering similar results with my current 800S’s, which although sounded fine “fresh” out of the box have IMHO improved over time.
Depending on the music and listening habits these changes may or may not be readily apparent, someone who listens at low to moderate volumes may not (never) perceive any changes, while those who like the to listen at higher than moderate volume levels are obviously setting the drivers in motion to a much greater degree, (wear and tear?)
So are driver break-ins psycho-acoustic, IMHO I do not believe so especially since we are dealing with moving parts, constant vibrations, heating and cooling, mechanical stress etc, etc…any and all of which will eventual have adverse effects but at some point along the way will reach its optimum performance level and then start to decay.
Now that’s not to say said headphone does not sound great or horrible “fresh” out of the box and stay that for the duration of owner ship, I do not believe my AKG K501s or 701s had any perceptible change except through different amplification, it all depends on the manufacturing, material tolerances amongst other things.
Unfortunately I cannot add anything with regards to my recently acquired HD650s as they are already a few years old.

 

[joeq70]

   
Be honest, you didn't actually read my post, did you?

Hahah I did! But it looks like I misinterpreted your point. Sorry! I was responding to the disingenuous part. My intent was to explain that I wasn't making the argument that your were refuting.

 

[castleofargh]

 when something could have 10 causes and we decide to put all the blame on only one without any form of evidence, I believe that's called gambling.

don't you guys go mistake it for logic or proof that burn in is a thing.
there are plenty of possible reasons that could explain, or at least be partially instrumental in perceived variations of sound over time on the hd650(plenty of both objective and psychological reasons). so don't dismiss burn in, because it's at least one of the possible causes. but don't be foolish by pretending that it's the only cause, or that perceiving a sound difference is proof of burn in, because those are fallacies.
burn in or not, if the logic is completely flawed, then the person arguing is wrong.

 

[joeq70]

On another note, I personally really like how HD650 sounds when used with Sonarworks. I use the HD650 profile, select the Flat setting, and turn off the clipping protection.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

  On another note, I personally really like how HD650 sounds when used with Sonarworks. I use the HD650 profile, select the Flat setting, and turn off the clipping protection.

I reeeeeeally wish they'd put in an HD700 setting. It definitely boosts the 650's beautifully.

 

[Solrighal]

  On another note, I personally really like how HD650 sounds when used with Sonarworks. I use the HD650 profile, select the Flat setting, and turn off the clipping protection.

 
I'll be honest and admit I hear no difference with Clipping Protection on or off. I'm 51 and definitely suffering slight hearing loss, particularly at the top end.
 

   when something could have 10 causes and we decide to put all the blame on only one without any form of evidence, I believe that's called gambling.

don't you guys go mistake it for logic or proof that burn in is a thing.
there are plenty of possible reasons that could explain, or at least be partially instrumental in perceived variations of sound over time on the hd650(plenty of both objective and psychological reasons). so don't dismiss burn in, because it's at least one of the possible causes. but don't be foolish by pretending that it's the only cause, or that perceiving a sound difference is proof of burn in, because those are fallacies.
burn in or not, if the logic is completely flawed, then the person arguing is wrong.

 
I agree. I'm not arguing that it's one or the other but it's annoying when a genuine physical effect is discounted out of hand. I know way more about cars than headphones and see burn-in all the time. It's an inevitability of mechanical components, i.e. drivers. Whether it can be heard, as I've said before, is another matter, but it does surely exist.

  I reeeeeeally wish they'd put in an HD700 setting. It definitely boosts the 650's beautifully.

 
Yes, and it's very telling that they didn't. Something odd about that headphone.

 

[Rob80b]

   when something could have 10 causes and we decide to put all the blame on only one without any form of evidence,
.................
burn in or not, if the logic is completely flawed, then the person arguing is wrong.

So true, but even if it is not visually obvious with driver break-in the overall phones themselves will inevitably change over time for better or worse.

 

[Solrighal]

  So true, but even if it is not visually obvious with driver break-in the overall phones themselves will inevitably change over time for better or worse.

 
I'll take the ones on the left, although I lean that way anyway.

 

[Alphanewb]

I'll take the ones on the left, although I lean that way anyway. :wink_face:

Looking at those shoes reminds me that pad wear (call it break-in?) is real... when the pads break down / give in more over time there is a definite change in FR.

 

[bavinck]

   
I'll be honest and admit I hear no difference with Clipping Protection on or off. I'm 51 and definitely suffering slight hearing loss, particularly at the top end.
 
 
I agree. I'm not arguing that it's one or the other but it's annoying when a genuine physical effect is discounted out of hand. I know way more about cars than headphones and see burn-in all the time. It's an inevitability of mechanical components, i.e. drivers. Whether it can be heard, as I've said before, is another matter, but it does surely exist.
 
Yes, and it's very telling that they didn't. Something odd about that headphone.

I just suspect its not that popular. With the hd800 setting the hd700s sound really good imo.

 

[Rob80b]

.........over time there is a definite change in FR.

I'll not enter into discussion on cables (although I'm sure Richard Feynman would

)... but pads and/or even drivers suffer from the same form of deterioration...wear and tear.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

The thing that always gets me is that no matter what someone complains about with a headphone, the answer is "it needs to burn in." Literally no matter what the problem is. Bass too loose? Burn in will tighten it. Highs too sharp? Burn in will soften them. Bass too light? Burn in will open it up. Highs rolled off? Burn in will make them sparkle more. It'll expand the soundstage, it'll improve separation, everything. It'll brighten muddy headphones and warm up thin ones, burn in will cure what ails ya!
 
I'd be more tempted to believe in burn in if there was any consistent description of how it alters the sound, the answer just seems to be "whatever you don't like about it, magic burn in will make it better." I'd also be more tempted to believe in it if I EVER heard a story of someone who enjoyed a headphone out of the box, but once it "burned in" they didn't enjoy how they changed. It would HAVE to happen if the character of the sound truly does alter. 
 
The analogy of clothing "breaking in" would work except the reason clothes do that is they're losing their structural integrity and it's not a "settling" situation, they just gradually get more and more worn out until they fall apart. So if that's the case, there's no "burned in" status, the speaker will just slowly break down over its lifespan until it doesn't work at all anymore.

 

[Mr Rick]

  The thing that always gets me is that no matter what someone complains about with a headphone, the answer is "it needs to burn in." Literally no matter what the problem is. Bass too loose? Burn in will tighten it. Highs too sharp? Burn in will soften them. Bass too light? Burn in will open it up. Highs rolled off? Burn in will make them sparkle more. It'll expand the soundstage, it'll improve separation, everything. It'll brighten muddy headphones and warm up thin ones, burn in will cure what ails ya!
 
I'd be more tempted to believe in burn in if there was any consistent description of how it alters the sound, the answer just seems to be "whatever you don't like about it, magic burn in will make it better." I'd also be more tempted to believe in it if I EVER heard a story of someone who enjoyed a headphone out of the box, but once it "burned in" they didn't enjoy how they changed. It would HAVE to happen if the character of the sound truly does alter. 
 
The analogy of clothing "breaking in" would work except the reason clothes do that is they're losing their structural integrity and it's not a "settling" situation, they just gradually get more and more worn out until they fall apart. So if that's the case, there's no "burned in" status, the speaker will just slowly break down over its lifespan until it doesn't work at all anymore.

See my signature.

 

[Solrighal]

  The thing that always gets me is that no matter what someone complains about with a headphone, the answer is "it needs to burn in." Literally no matter what the problem is. Bass too loose? Burn in will tighten it. Highs too sharp? Burn in will soften them. Bass too light? Burn in will open it up. Highs rolled off? Burn in will make them sparkle more. It'll expand the soundstage, it'll improve separation, everything. It'll brighten muddy headphones and warm up thin ones, burn in will cure what ails ya!
 
I'd be more tempted to believe in burn in if there was any consistent description of how it alters the sound, the answer just seems to be "whatever you don't like about it, magic burn in will make it better." I'd also be more tempted to believe in it if I EVER heard a story of someone who enjoyed a headphone out of the box, but once it "burned in" they didn't enjoy how they changed. It would HAVE to happen if the character of the sound truly does alter. 
 
The analogy of clothing "breaking in" would work except the reason clothes do that is they're losing their structural integrity and it's not a "settling" situation, they just gradually get more and more worn out until they fall apart. So if that's the case, there's no "burned in" status, the speaker will just slowly break down over its lifespan until it doesn't work at all anymore.

 
Total nonsense! I can't even begin to argue all that is wrong with this statement but what I will say is that I'd have expected better of you. I gave you an example of your second point.