[penmarker]

But we can't dismiss the fact that some people cannot perceive audio differences as well as others - case and point; me. I need to focus hard to differentiate between my laptop's onboard sound and my Aune T1 MK2 DAC. Back then circa 2000's I used to enjoy my Sony MDR VR150 straight out of my desktop with 128kbps MP3, and a better headphone will only be better if it has better (more) bass. Biggest differences I can hear is between different headphones, and I cannot retain audio signature memory.
 
I can eventually after years of experience, and can't settle down with lower end equipment but a lot of people just don't have that privilege. Some even can pick out component signatures the first time they hear it.
 
So to these people, why should they get something else other than an ODAC/O2 stack? To them they sound the same, and other people shouldn't get other expensive gears too.

 

[DavidA]

  But we can't dismiss the fact that some people cannot perceive audio differences as well as others - case and point; me. I need to focus hard to differentiate between my laptop's onboard sound and my Aune T1 MK2 DAC. Back then circa 2000's I used to enjoy my Sony MDR VR150 straight out of my desktop with 128kbps MP3, and a better headphone will only be better if it has better (more) bass. Biggest differences I can hear is between different headphones, and I cannot retain audio signature memory.
 
I can eventually after years of experience, and can't settle down with lower end equipment but a lot of people just don't have that privilege. Some even can pick out component signatures the first time they hear it.
 
So to these people, why should they get something else other than an ODAC/O2 stack? To them they sound the same, and other people shouldn't get other expensive gears too.

good point, if the individual can't hear the difference then to them the conclusion is that the ODAC/O2 is as good as any other DAC/amp combo out there, great counter point

.
 
But you also have those that can hear the difference in headphone cables or even power cables which I can't tell

 

[goodyfresh]

 
good point, if the individual can't hear the difference then to them the conclusion is that the ODAC/O2 is as good as any other DAC/amp combo out there, great counter point

.
 
But you also have those that can hear the difference in headphone cables or even power cables which I can't tell

I believe people can hear the difference between a $5 or $10 cable and a $50 or $100.  But expensive boutique cables, especially fancer power-cables, are probably (not definitely, but probably) just a case of confirmation-bias in terms of people "hearing" the difference.  We're talking about distortion differences around like 0.0001 to 0.001%  THD.  In fact, the differences in distortion and other factors introduced by "premium" headphone-cables, are so much smaller than the distortion from the headphone-drivers themselves (for ANY headphones) that the idea those changes could be heard above the approximately-random noise of the headphones' own THD (generally no lower than 0.01 to 0.1%) is very, very far-fetched to say the least.
 
Anyway onto the thread topic: I've heard the HD650 myself for an extended session at a store and did think it sounded quite beautiful   Couldn't really hear it as at-all "veiled" like some people say, although I do know headphones in its price-range that beat it for clarity so I guess compared to THOSE you could call it "veiled"--but to me, it sounded VERY clear.  The detail separation and layering is nice, and of course the soundstage very pleasing.  Could do without the roll-off in the lower bass of course, but at this price you pretty much have to expect that in a fully-open headphone.  Also feel like it could do with just a BIT (just a tad bit) more treble for added sparkle, for my tastes.  But overall they are superb and I'd easily give them 4.75 out of 5 stars for their price, based on what I heard of them.
 
About the myth of the Sennheiser HD600 and 650 "veil":  I suspect it's just folks who hear any signature with treble that is at all rolled-off as a "veiled" sound.  At least, that's my theory, could be completely wrong!

 

[DavidA]

  I believe people can hear the difference between a $5 or $10 cable and a $50 or $100.  But expensive boutique cables, especially fancer power-cables, are probably (not definitely, but probably) just a case of confirmation-bias in terms of people "hearing" the difference.  We're talking about distortion differences around like 0.0001 to 0.001%  THD.  In fact, the differences in distortion and other factors introduced by "premium" headphone-cables, are so much smaller than the distortion from the headphone-drivers themselves (for ANY headphones) that the idea those changes could be heard above the approximately-random noise of the headphones' own THD (generally no lower than 0.01 to 0.1%) is very, very far-fetched to say the least.
 
Anyway onto the thread topic: I've heard the HD650 myself for an extended session at a store and did think it sounded quite beautiful   Couldn't really hear it as at-all "veiled" like some people say, although I do know headphones in its price-range that beat it for clarity so I guess compared to THOSE you could call it "veiled"--but to me, it sounded VERY clear.  The detail separation and layering is nice, and of course the soundstage very pleasing.  Could do without the roll-off in the lower bass of course, but at this price you pretty much have to expect that in a fully-open headphone.  Also feel like it could do with just a BIT (just a tad bit) more treble for added sparkle, for my tastes.  But overall they are superb and I'd easily give them 4.75 out of 5 stars for their price, based on what I heard of them.
 
About the myth of the Sennheiser HD600 and 650 "veil":  I suspect it's just folks who hear any signature with treble that is at all rolled-off as a "veiled" sound.  At least, that's my theory, could be completely wrong!

For speaker cable I can hear the difference between 5-10 cables and 50-100 ones, with headphone cables not so much between some cheaper no-name $10-25 ones than the stock ones.  I tried a $15 cable for my HD-650 when I first got it since I wanted a short cable at my desk and couldn't tell the difference from the stock one.  I've since learned to build my own cables and use Mogami, Canare, and Cardas wires and have been really happy with them and couldn't tell the difference from some $300-500 Forza and Double Helix cables that my friend gave to me.  Looks wise they are pieces of art and would use them all the time if money wasn't an issue, I'd rather buy wine.

 

[mysticstryk]

I believe people can hear the difference between a $5 or $10 cable and a $50 or $100.  But expensive boutique cables, especially fancer power-cables, are probably (not definitely, but probably) just a case of confirmation-bias in terms of people "hearing" the difference.  We're talking about distortion differences around like 0.0001 to 0.001%  THD.  In fact, the differences in distortion and other factors introduced by "premium" headphone-cables, are so much smaller than the distortion from the headphone-drivers themselves (for ANY headphones) that the idea those changes could be heard above the approximately-random noise of the headphones' own THD (generally no lower than 0.01 to 0.1%) is very, very far-fetched to say the least.

Anyway onto the thread topic: I've heard the HD650 myself for an extended session at a store and did think it sounded quite beautiful   Couldn't really hear it as at-all "veiled" like some people say, although I do know headphones in its price-range that beat it for clarity so I guess compared to THOSE you could call it "veiled"--but to me, it sounded VERY clear.  The detail separation and layering is nice, and of course the soundstage very pleasing.  Could do without the roll-off in the lower bass of course, but at this price you pretty much have to expect that in a fully-open headphone.  Also feel like it could do with just a BIT (just a tad bit) more treble for added sparkle, for my tastes.  But overall they are superb and I'd easily give them 4.75 out of 5 stars for their price, based on what I heard of them.

About the myth of the Sennheiser HD600 and 650 "veil":  I suspect it's just folks who hear any signature with treble that is at all rolled-off as a "veiled" sound.  At least, that's my theory, could be completely wrong!

My long-standing theory is that back when it was the original trio (hd650, k701, dt880) the other two headphones were so bright that the rather smooth treble of the hd650 (black drivers, so even darker than now) made it appear dark and "veiled" in comparison.

As the boy from Matrix would say...

 

[goodyfresh]

My long-standing theory is that back when it was the original trio (hd650, k701, dt880) the other two headphones were so bright that the rather smooth treble of the hd650 (black drivers, so even darker than now) made it appear dark and "veiled" in comparison.

As the boy from Matrix would say...

  Haha way to bust out that meme-generator mastery, dude. 

Anyway different people have different definitions of the word "veil," that's another issue.  To me it has more to do with the layering/imaging and the sensation of there being some kind of "muddying" barriers between the different elements of the music and my ears.  Have tested with tones to see if that sense, for me, corresponds to particular frequency-response signatures, and it does not, I've heard both bright and warm headphones as being "veiled" in my definition.

Other people define being veiled as having dark treble.  That's not what I call it, if something has dark treble I just say "hey the treble is below neutral."  Haha.  Seems like "veiled" is a pretty vague/subtle term to use for something so easily and precisely measurable.
 

 
For speaker cable I can hear the difference between 5-10 cables and 50-100 ones, with headphone cables not so much between some cheaper no-name $10-25 ones than the stock ones.  I tried a $15 cable for my HD-650 when I first got it since I wanted a short cable at my desk and couldn't tell the difference from the stock one.  I've since learned to build my own cables and use Mogami, Canare, and Cardas wires and have been really happy with them and couldn't tell the difference from some $300-500 Forza and Double Helix cables that my friend gave to me.  Looks wise they are pieces of art and would use them all the time if money wasn't an issue, I'd rather buy wine.

 
The crappiest of headphone cables, I can hear a difference, if they really are just crappy and flimsy and prone to shorting within a few weeks, I can hear a difference in sound between them and like, $15 even before the crappy ones have started to short-out.  You know the kinda cables I mean, that come with like really badly made consumer headphones for people who don't know better, then short out within a month of use.  There are cases where headphones with detachable-cables do come with cables that crappy, and I can hear the difference between them and a better replacement cable.

But otherwise no, can never hear the difference with headphone cables.  I was referring just to stuff for headphones, I'm not a speaker dude (yet, due to monetary concerns) I have no idea myself is speaker-cables make an audible difference to me.

 

[audiojun]

The crap cables are bad mostly because of a bad soldering from the cable to the connectors. Mass produced ROHS cables are using lead free solder which isn't the best solder to use.

 

[Letmebefrank]

But we can't dismiss the fact that some people cannot perceive audio differences as well as others - case and point; me. I need to focus hard to differentiate between my laptop's onboard sound and my Aune T1 MK2 DAC. Back then circa 2000's I used to enjoy my Sony MDR VR150 straight out of my desktop with 128kbps MP3, and a better headphone will only be better if it has better (more) bass. Biggest differences I can hear is between different headphones, and I cannot retain audio signature memory.

I can eventually after years of experience, and can't settle down with lower end equipment but a lot of people just don't have that privilege. Some even can pick out component signatures the first time they hear it.

So to these people, why should they get something else other than an ODAC/O2 stack? To them they sound the same, and other people shouldn't get other expensive gears too.

If they can't hear the difference, why get the $279 odac/amp at all? Buy a cheap Chinese fiio headamp for more volume and call it good. The difference between 128 and 320 is so glaringly obvious it's hard to imagine anyone not being able to hear the difference, and the same with 320 to lossless but to a slightly lesser degree.

As far as speaker cables go, if I hook up my bi-amped Klipsch towers with 20 gauge speaker wire they sound so thin it's just nasty. I use 14 gauge and they sound great, but I couldn't tell the difference between $150 14awg cables and $10 14awg cables.

I haven't been able to hear a difference in headphone cables and I've tried a few, the different ones are mainly for convenience or looks.

 

[c64]

buying these 650 was a mistake by me whats the point if they only sound good on a only works well on 600ohm +£400 bottlehead or £500 + solid state amp
may as well just change the 650 and get more expensive cans I have tried now the 650's on a few solid state amps and they sound thin and lacking compared to my x1.
 
Just going to sell them I don't want the expense of a non versatile £400 tube amp just for the 650's to not sound thin.

 

[Youth]

  buying these 650 was a mistake by me whats the point if they only sound good on a only works well on 600ohm +£400 bottlehead or £500 + solid state amp
may as well just change the 650 and get more expensive overpriced cans I have tried now the 650's on a few solid state amps and they sound thin and lacking compared to my x1.
 
Just going to sell them I don't want the expense of a non versatile £400 tube amp just for the 650's to not sound thin.

 
What solid state amplifiers did you try them with? 

 

[c64]

   
What solid state amplifiers did you try them with? 

Oppo HA2 (tested at cex store)
Fiio mount blanc (tested at cex store)
Schiit magni 2 uber (borrowed from a fellow ocuk forum member)
Creative e5 (tested at cex)
 
Sounded thin and not a patch on my fidelio x1 even on a lowly e6 amp on all of them.
Anyway I am done with them they are going up for sale I am not prepared to spend 2x the cost of the headphones just to get them to sound full bodied. 

 

[Koolpep]

  buying these 650 was a mistake by me whats the point if they only sound good on a only works well on 600ohm +£400 bottlehead or £500 + solid state amp
may as well just change the 650 and get more expensive cans I have tried now the 650's on a few solid state amps and they sound thin and lacking compared to my x1.
 
Just going to sell them I don't want the expense of a non versatile £400 tube amp just for the 650's to not sound thin.

They will never sound as bassy/thick as the X1 - no matter which amp you use. It's not your signature then, the HD650 are no bass cannons.
 
The X1 is a very good headphone by the way, I do like the HD650 mids more though and overall find the 650 more refined. But the X1 has more bass for sure. Som in comparison to the X1 the 650 will always sound thinner - but that doesn't mean they sound "thin" - there are many other examples of really "thin" sounding headphones I could give you 

.
 
Anyhow - the 650 seem not to be your preferred sound signature - so that's a good learning - sell them and focus on headphones with more bass, Fostex and Denon did some really good ones.
 
Cheers.

 

[DavidA]

  buying these 650 was a mistake by me whats the point if they only sound good on a only works well on 600ohm +£400 bottlehead or £500 + solid state amp
may as well just change the 650 and get more expensive cans I have tried now the 650's on a few solid state amps and they sound thin and lacking compared to my x1.
 
Just going to sell them I don't want the expense of a non versatile £400 tube amp just for the 650's to not sound thin.

I think you will also find that higher priced headphones such as the HD-800 will require even better gear to get the most out of them, some say $2000 for the DAC and amp, and after having the HD-800 for a while I would agree with that.  There are many cheaper tube and SS amps that will drive the HD-650 quite well, Polaris ($250), Solstice ($250).
 
If you like the sound of the X1 then I think the sound signature of the HD-650 is just not your preference.  I have a X1 and to me it sound overly warm with bass that is a little bloated/muddy, mids that are too recessed and highs that are rolled of but they are very easy to drive and will sound about the same from a phone and from a $2K system.  This is just the opposite from the HD-650.

 

[Youth]

  Oppo HA2 (tested at cex store)
Fiio mount blanc (tested at cex store)
Schiit magni 2 uber (borrowed from a fellow ocuk forum member)
Creative e5 (tested at cex)
 
Sounded thin and not a patch on my fidelio x1 even on a lowly e6 amp on all of them.
Anyway I am done with them they are going up for sale I am not prepared to spend 2x the cost of the headphones just to get them to sound full bodied. 

 
Well then it's not suprising you don't like them. If you're looking for a headphone that sounds similar to X1 then HD650 isn't it. Good luck

 

[ButtUglyJeff]

There are tons of "premium" headphones that don't have the driving needs of the HD650.  Fostex, Hifiman, and Audeze have offerings that come to mind....