[Hibuckhobby]

Just picked up another amp...a Gustard H10 and I love the way it sounds with the 650's.  The power
and high damping factor really gets a grip on the bass.  I still prefer the mids via my Bottlehead Crack,
but in terms of highs and soundstage, the Gustard wins out.  When I compare my HE500's via the
Lyr and the Gustard, the Lyr has a bit more warmth in the midrange, but a bit less transparency.
 
I have been around high end audio for 45 years or more and just don't hear the "veil" some are talking
about.  The Senns are warmer and richer through the mids and upper bass than some phones, but if
I need lots of slam, there are other cans that will do that.  Have owned a lot of cans, but keep coming
back to the Senns.
regards,
Hibuck...

 

[ButtUglyJeff]

  How do you all think the HD650's will sound on a built in amp from an Onkyo receiver? Enough for a beginner?

 
It depends on the power output of the headphone out...
 
But with that said, many vintage receivers can drive a pair of HD650s to quite a lovely level of enjoyment.  Plus, you always have the speaker tap route.

 

[Kodhifi]

  I tried this blind listening test with a few songs that I ripped from CD to WAV, FLAC, 320/CBR, 256/CBR, 256/VBR, 192/CBR, and 192VBR.
 
With my speaker systems: computer optical to DAC (Teac UD-301) to AMP (SAE X-10A) to speakers (KEF Ref 103.2 and Magnepan 1.6) it was very easy to tell that anything under 320/CBR was not going to cut it, I guessed about 50% correct between WAV/FLAC and 320/CBR (tried 10 songs).
 
With headphones: computer optical to DAC (UD-301) to Lyr2 (Telefunken tubes) headphones (HE-560, HD-700, RS2e, HD-650, HE-400).
 
With HD-650 and HE-400 it was much harder to tell the difference between 320/CBR and 256/CBR, anything less was noticeably degraded.  All of the VBR rips were easily noted as the sound was congested, not much sound stage, highs were getting thin and the bass was muddy.  Again like the speakers I found it hard to tell the difference between WAV/FLAC and 320/CBR
 
With HD-700, HE-560 and RS2e it was like the speaker system, anything below 320/CBR was not good.  Between WAV/FLAC and 320/CBR it gets very hard to tell the difference, my girlfriend and 2 of her friends were pretty much 50-50 on which file was being played.
 
Another thing I found this pass weekend when another Head-Fi guy here in Hawaii came over was that songs he downloaded from Spotify and other sites sounded flat or muddy or compressed even if they were 320/CBR.  We noticed this when he was using his phone as the source and changed over to my X3 for the source and played a few of the same songs that he had on his phone and I had on the X3, it was like wow.  He's now going to have to buy CD's and rip or get downloads from a better source. 

Spotify is definitely lossy, even on their high quality streaming setting. It's not as big a problem for many tracks, but some tracks are kind of ruined. Not that I love the band or anything but Imagine Dragons "Radioactive" is a good example. They keep the levels pegged at 0db for almost the entire song. I don't know what kind of compressor they used but it managed to pretty much saturate the signal continuously. Anyway, the bass is a distorted, over saturated mess and on spotify it sounds like it's clipping. Even a good 320 in Fubar sounds like crap but less flat.

 

[Kodhifi]

Thanks for the impressions vs planars. Speaking to Take Five specifically, I have to say that the cymbals are the most thrilling part of this recording for me. What I've personally found is that listening on vinyl with an ortofon bronze cartridge, the cymbals sound much better than any flac recording I've downloaded. I don't disagree that the ring may sound clearer on planars, but I would also suggest that they would also be breath taking with the 650s and a good amplifier. I use the Woo WA2 with Tung Sol 7236 tubes and find the high end to be very nice.

All of this talk of veiled mids also makes me question how exactly they're veiled. I will say that a lot of newer headphones have artificially boosted certain frequencies, which leads to exaggerated details, but I really disagree that the midrange of the 650s is veiled. I do agree about the visceral impact of the bass with these cans... The bass is already exaggerated as is, but people want it to hit harder, which is fine. I personally don't.

Would you personally say the HE's have non-veiled mids? I found the midrange of the HE-500s to be not as nice or satisfying as the 650s, but I did hear different tonality. To me, it didn't sound as warm or fully euphonic.

Thanks

I've been listening to DT990's for 2 years, my impression of veiled may not match yours. How is an analog recording of one tape to another tape different? They have the same frequency response provided it's a good deck, and the noise level will rise but never the less there is a noticable loss of detail on the copy. That is what hte 650's sound like compared to the 400's, a hard to describe lack of presence, more noticeable in the higher registers. The imaging of the 400's is better as well. They each bring something different to the table and I think there is room for both in my collection.
 
I personally think the 400's are veiled in the lower midrange. They are engimatic in that they have a veiled, yet bright sound. This is a slight thing though. Nobody would ever say "The HE400 is a midrange monster" but neither does it sound particularly scooped. It's not a flat response curve but neither is it a V curve.
 
Good midrange to me is DT880, or Q701 (other than the coloration).

 

[Poimandres]

I would ask if both tapes were recorded on the same machine. The original and the recording that is.

 

[Oregonian]

  How do you all think the HD650's will sound on a built in amp from an Onkyo receiver? Enough for a beginner?

 
Depending on what era Onkyo receiver it is.  The vintage monsters are IMO far superior to any headphone amp to a large extent. 

   
Well, you'll hear music. But they'll fall far short of their potential.

 
All I use are vintage amps.  With tone controls, loudness and incredible power with little distortion specs, I can't imagine anyone saying this.   
 
What exactly is the basis for your comment? 

 

[Tuco1965]

Output impedance of the headphone jack is one spec that can make a difference.  Some reach up into the 300 ohm plus area.

 

[pietcux]

The basis of the HD650 is still the HD580. they came out in 1994. They have the same driver specs as the HD650. They were born in the late era of the vintage receivers. The HD650 might very well match those headphone jacks. Dedicated headphone amps were not very popular those days.

 

[chuckwheat]

Well I took them out of the box a half hour ago!
 
Initial impressions.... I dunno. :/ I'm honestly kind of underwhelmed. It sounds a lot less crisp and detailed compared to the ultrasones that I've used extensively for the last 2 years. I was expecting this, as the ultrasones are overly bassy and bright, and known for it. Maybe i just have to get used to them. Maybe they have to warm up and burn in. It just seems like all the instruments are mushed together and coming out of a small speaker, whereas on the ultrasones, each instrument is defined and separated a lot, it's forward and immersing, and sounds like it's coming out of a gigantor speaker. It seems like there's a huge covering over the whole thing... I know on the ultrasones there was a huge difference between brand new and 200 hours later. I thought burn-in was bs, but they clearly showed it.
The clamping force is kind of hurting my jaw after just a couple minutes.It's RIGHT on the pressure point below your ears and above you jaw. Maybe they'll loosen up too? Otherwise they're really comfy. Great design for comfort And the open backs are great so I can whistle along and actually hear myself XD. (I whistle a lot)
Perhaps they wont sound all that great until they meet a high-end tube amp? The magni 2 uber might not do it justice?

 

[Tuco1965]

 
The basis of the HD650 is still the HD580. they came out in 1994. They have the same driver specs as the HD650. They were born in the late era of the vintage receivers. The HD650 might very well match those headphone jacks. Dedicated headphone amps were not very popular those days.

 
Real vintage receivers would be fine.  It's hit and miss after that.  They all work, but there could be some different interactions and effects depending on the impedance output.

 

[pietcux]

  Well I took them out of the box a half hour ago!
 
Initial impressions.... I dunno. :/ I'm honestly kind of underwhelmed. It sounds a lot less crisp and detailed compared to the ultrasones that I've used extensively for the last 2 years. I was expecting this, as the ultrasones are overly bassy and bright, and known for it. Maybe i just have to get used to them. Maybe they have to warm up and burn in. It just seems like all the instruments are mushed together and coming out of a small speaker, whereas on the ultrasones, each instrument is defined and separated a lot and sounds like it's coming out of a gigantor speaker. It seems like there's a huge covering over the whole thing... I know on the ultrasones there was a huge difference between brand new and 200 hours later. I thought burn-in was bs, but they clearly showed it.
The clamping force is kind of hurting my jaw after just a couple minutes.It's RIGHT on the pressure point below your ears and above you jaw. Maybe they'll loosen up too? Otherwise they're really comfy. Great design for comfort And the open backs are great so I can whistle along and actually hear myself XD.
Perhaps they wont sound all that great until they meet a high-end tube amp? The magni 2 uber might not do it justice?

I come from Ultrasones too. The lats one was the ED 12. Still own the Signature PRO. Had The HFI2400, PRO900, PRO2900 and the Sig Dj. I am so happy that I now have a headphone that is nice to my ears and nice to my music. You must give your brain time to readjust to the presentation of the HD650. your brains internal equalizer is adjusted to tame the V shaped response of the HFI680 at the moment. After you are used to the HD650 you will probably dislike the Ultrasone sound.
It is easy to adjust the clamping force of the HD650. Just extend the metal part of the headband to the fullest grip one side with both hands and bend it outwards but only the metal piece, do not bend the plastic. Then do the same to the other side. The metal is spring steel, and it is very robust, so don't be afraid. Just avoid to bend the plastic.

 

[chuckwheat]

  I come from Ultrasones too. The lats one was the ED 12. Still own the Signature PRO. Had The HFI2400, PRO900, PRO2900 and the Sig Dj. I am so happy that I now have a headphone that is nice to my ears and nice to my music. You must give your brain time to readjust to the presentation of the HD650. your brains internal equalizer is adjusted to tame the V shaped response of the HFI680 at the moment. After you are used to the HD650 you will probably dislike the Ultrasone sound.
It is easy to adjust the clamping force of the HD650. Just extend the metal part of the headband to the fullest grip one side with both hands and bend it outwards but only the metal piece, do not bend the plastic. Then do the same to the other side. The metal is spring steel, and it is very robust, so don't be afraid. Just avoid to bend the plastic.

Yeah I was suspecting that my brain would have to get used to it... :/ I'll give it 50 or so hours and see how it is.
Already just after a few songs and going back and forth, I don't like either sound that much XD. Maybe I ruined my ears!

 

[pietcux]

  Yeah I was suspecting that my brain would have to get used to it... :/ I'll give it 50 or so hours and see how it is.
Already just after a few songs and going back and forth, I don't like either sound that much XD. Maybe I ruined my ears!

I did not ruin mine, so there is hope. But do yourself a favor and do not go back and forth. Just exclusively use the HD650 for some days and let yourself adjust. It is much faster that way.

 

[chuckwheat]

 
I did not ruin mine, so there is hope. But do yourself a favor and do not go back and forth. Just exclusively use the HD650 for some days and let yourself adjust. It is much faster that way.

Alright. Thanks
 
I think regardless, my wallet will force me to like these either way XD
 
Any advice on how to wear them? The cups are so big that I could have them forward, backward, high, or low and still envelope my ears.

 

[Solrighal]

Depending on what era Onkyo receiver it is.  The vintage monsters are IMO far superior to any headphone amp to a large extent. 

All I use are vintage amps.  With tone controls, loudness and incredible power with little distortion specs, I can't imagine anyone saying this.   

What exactly is the basis for your comment? 

The basis for my comment is my assumption that we're talking about a modern Onkyo receiver. That could well be my mistake & it might be an older model. If it is something more recent then I'd bank on the same money achieving better sound if it's put to a dedicated headphone amp.