[Eee Pee]

  Given that even on a 650mw amp they have headshaking bass, I didn't think amping would increase it much more. 

All good headphonebro.  It's not "increasing it much more", it's better definition.  Control of the driver.  Not how loud or quantity, but quality.  That's what people pay for.

 

[Kodhifi]

   
I think this is a very accurate assessment of the HD650.  Especially this bit:
 
"I think the 650's bring more to the table in sound stage and clarity than they lose in bass compared to the best sounding bass headphones I own."
 
The only thing to be aware of for anyone going from a headphone that offers a deeper, more extended sub-bass, you'll will instantly notice the hd650 never seems to hit "as hard".
 
I'm sure not having this extension probably is what makes the mids and highs so luscious and fun.  It's difficult for my ears to adjust to it's relaxed sound after fine-tuning my system for brighter headphones.
 
Nearly everyone claims tubes make the hd650 truly shine.  I'm not sure if I'm ready to test this, but am curious if anyone who owns both a planar and the hd650 can comment on the system dependency and if the gap closes a bit driven synergistically?
 
Even with everything I've said, the hd650 is without a doubt, one of the best headphones that's been out as long as it has and remained relevant as long as it has for that very reason.

My main comparison is HE400's to the 650's. My highest power amp is a 1000mw E9 FiiO so I can't comment on the sound compared to something like a 6 watt lyr, but most of the difference I hear in sound is in the upper midrange. It's one of those things that on some tracks, it's different, but you can't put your finger on it. Other tracks, it's night and day.
 
Listening to Dave Brubeck Quartet's Take Five on the HE400's, the cymbal work the drummer is doing has an easily distinguishable ring. The ring is still there on the 650, but it's like a lower fidelity version of it. The best way I can sum it up is veiled. The 650's are well designed and Sennheiser has really squeezed every bit of performance out of voice coil dynamic drivers but it's not really fair to compare them to even an entry level planar like the 400's. The other area the 400's outperform is detail in the bass. It's hard to describe as well, these are all my subjective experiences, but listening to something like Bonnie Prince Billy "I see a darkness" the 400's reveal more details about the bass. It's not louder, it's not deeper per sey, but you get a sense of the air vibrating as a huge bass string moves back and forth, there is more detail. As a sometime bass player I have never heard the bass guitar on a recording have that quality it does when you are playing one. There are certain sounds, not the note but the thick string quickly vibrating back and forth, the way it makes the nut buzz a little, the higher harmonics even in the lowest notes from the wound metal strings, you hear it when you play a bass, you rarely hear it on a recording but the 400's brought that out easily.
 
The same songs on the 650 still sound terrific but it's more like a good headphone like the 990, and not like the god tier that are electrostatic and planar magnetic drivers. On the other hand the 650's have a warmth to them, and again a kind of thicker sound, party bolstered by the slight bump in midrange bass and the veiled mids, and this makes them VERY forgiving of harsh sound recordings in a track, and it hides the flaws where as the 400's amplify the flaws. Also in spite of the veiled but bright sound of the 400's, they sound a little cold. If these headphones were a color, 400's would be blue/white and 650's would be a warm sunset.
 
So I'm continuing to listen to the 650's tonight and I think they have loosened up some. I have about 8 hours break in on them. I'm listening to a 192kbps recording of The Shins Saint Simon and realized the cymbals sound like crap. I love good clean audio but I'm not a snob when it comes to how I listen. The majority of my collection is mp3 of various bitrates and I usually don't care much what bit rate it's recorded at. Yeah I can tell the difference, I just don't usually care. But the 400's and 650's and my new DAC have changed my minimum expected quality of a recording, and I'm sad to say, 192 doesn't cut it even for casual listening.
 
I did a blind listening test once some audiophile rag was staging to see if you could tell the difference in bitrates on a recording, and I could spot the difference between mid and high bitrate mp3, and uncompressed, but it was hard. I had to listen over and over and in the end, it wasn't compression artifacts or anything like that, it was the echo of the guitar. IE the soundstage was SLIGHTly different from one encoding to the next due to the rapid attack and decay of the guitar echoing in the soundspace it was recorded in.
 
This isn't like that, I don't need multiple listens and closing my eyes, it's like a big red gorrilla waving a flashing neon sign "Bad encoding!!!!".

 

[iancraig10]

The only thing to be aware of for anyone going from a headphone that offers a deeper, more extended sub-bass, you'll will instantly notice the hd650 never seems to hit "as hard".

Exactly how I felt about them. They are an excellent headphone but do lack a powerful sub bass.

I trialed an amp with an eq filter for the Senn and after that, I found the bass lacking. I then got. Fostex th900 that has that low bass.

Having said that, the designer of the 'eq'd' amp is making one for me now so my Senns will be used more then.

They do seem to react to different amps as far as attack and liveliness go though. An amp that controls them more actually makes them quite lively sounding!

 

[DavidA]

 
My main comparison is HE400's to the 650's. My highest power amp is a 1000mw E9 FiiO so I can't comment on the sound compared to something like a 6 watt lyr, but most of the difference I hear in sound is in the upper midrange. It's one of those things that on some tracks, it's different, but you can't put your finger on it. Other tracks, it's night and day.
 
I'm listening to a 192kbps recording of The Shins Saint Simon and realized the cymbals sound like crap. I love good clean audio but I'm not a snob when it comes to how I listen. The majority of my collection is mp3 of various bitrates and I usually don't care much what bit rate it's recorded at. Yeah I can tell the difference, I just don't usually care. But the 400's and 650's and my new DAC have changed my minimum expected quality of a recording, and I'm sad to say, 192 doesn't cut it even for casual listening.
 
I did a blind listening test once some audiophile rag was staging to see if you could tell the difference in bitrates on a recording, and I could spot the difference between mid and high bitrate mp3, and uncompressed, but it was hard. I had to listen over and over and in the end, it wasn't compression artifacts or anything like that, it was the echo of the guitar. IE the soundstage was SLIGHTly different from one encoding to the next due to the rapid attack and decay of the guitar echoing in the soundspace it was recorded in.
 
This isn't like that, I don't need multiple listens and closing my eyes, it's like a big red gorrilla waving a flashing neon sign "Bad encoding!!!!".

I tried this blind listening test with a few songs that I ripped from CD to WAV, FLAC, 320/CBR, 256/CBR, 256/VBR, 192/CBR, and 192VBR.
 
With my speaker systems: computer optical to DAC (Teac UD-301) to AMP (SAE X-10A) to speakers (KEF Ref 103.2 and Magnepan 1.6) it was very easy to tell that anything under 320/CBR was not going to cut it, I guessed about 50% correct between WAV/FLAC and 320/CBR (tried 10 songs).
 
With headphones: computer optical to DAC (UD-301) to Lyr2 (Telefunken tubes) headphones (HE-560, HD-700, RS2e, HD-650, HE-400).
 
With HD-650 and HE-400 it was much harder to tell the difference between 320/CBR and 256/CBR, anything less was noticeably degraded.  All of the VBR rips were easily noted as the sound was congested, not much sound stage, highs were getting thin and the bass was muddy.  Again like the speakers I found it hard to tell the difference between WAV/FLAC and 320/CBR
 
With HD-700, HE-560 and RS2e it was like the speaker system, anything below 320/CBR was not good.  Between WAV/FLAC and 320/CBR it gets very hard to tell the difference, my girlfriend and 2 of her friends were pretty much 50-50 on which file was being played.
 
Another thing I found this pass weekend when another Head-Fi guy here in Hawaii came over was that songs he downloaded from Spotify and other sites sounded flat or muddy or compressed even if they were 320/CBR.  We noticed this when he was using his phone as the source and changed over to my X3 for the source and played a few of the same songs that he had on his phone and I had on the X3, it was like wow.  He's now going to have to buy CD's and rip or get downloads from a better source. 

 

[mikoss]

My main comparison is HE400's to the 650's.

...

Listening to Dave Brubeck Quartet's Take Five on the HE400's, the cymbal work the drummer is doing has an easily distinguishable ring. The ring is still there on the 650, but it's like a lower fidelity version of it. The best way I can sum it up is veiled. The 650's are well designed and Sennheiser has really squeezed every bit of performance out of voice coil dynamic drivers but it's not really fair to compare them to even an entry level planar like the 400's.

Thanks for the impressions vs planars. Speaking to Take Five specifically, I have to say that the cymbals are the most thrilling part of this recording for me. What I've personally found is that listening on vinyl with an ortofon bronze cartridge, the cymbals sound much better than any flac recording I've downloaded. I don't disagree that the ring may sound clearer on planars, but I would also suggest that they would also be breath taking with the 650s and a good amplifier. I use the Woo WA2 with Tung Sol 7236 tubes and find the high end to be very nice.

All of this talk of veiled mids also makes me question how exactly they're veiled. I will say that a lot of newer headphones have artificially boosted certain frequencies, which leads to exaggerated details, but I really disagree that the midrange of the 650s is veiled. I do agree about the visceral impact of the bass with these cans... The bass is already exaggerated as is, but people want it to hit harder, which is fine. I personally don't.

Would you personally say the HE's have non-veiled mids? I found the midrange of the HE-500s to be not as nice or satisfying as the 650s, but I did hear different tonality. To me, it didn't sound as warm or fully euphonic.

Thanks

 

[Krutsch]

Thanks for the impressions vs planars. Speaking to Take Five specifically, I have to say that the cymbals are the most thrilling part of this recording for me. What I've personally found is that listening on vinyl with an ortofon bronze cartridge, the cymbals sound much better than any flac recording I've downloaded. I don't disagree that the ring may sound clearer on planars, but I would also suggest that they would also be breath taking with the 650s and a good amplifier. I use the Woo WA2 with Tung Sol 7236 tubes and find the high end to be very nice.

All of this talk of veiled mids also makes me question how exactly they're veiled. I will say that a lot of newer headphones have artificially boosted certain frequencies, which leads to exaggerated details, but I really disagree that the midrange of the 650s is veiled. I do agree about the visceral impact of the bass with these cans... The bass is already exaggerated as is, but people want it to hit harder, which is fine. I personally don't.

Would you personally say the HE's have non-veiled mids? I found the midrange of the HE-500s to be not as nice or satisfying as the 650s, but I did hear different tonality. To me, it didn't sound as warm or fully euphonic.

Thanks

 
Slighltly OT, but how do you find the HE-500s perform with your WA2, compared with how the amp pairs with the HD-650?

 

[mikoss]

I honestly think they sound better on a SS setup. I fell in love with the HE-500s at a meet, where I heard three different setups, all solid state amps. (As I recall, the SPL Auditor and a couple of Audio GD setups). When I got a pair of my own at home, I just couldn't replicate the experience. I didn't have the Tung Sols in the Woo at the time (I would be interested in hearing them now with say the 5998s), just a pair of Sylvania 7236 tubes.

With the WA2, I don't think they were at their best. I felt like the treble was recessed or something... I heard more of the upper mids instead of the full body I heard with the 650s. It made guitar sound thin to me, which was the deal breaker. At the meet, I remember hearing better details, more sonic layering (as in nice tonality), bigger bass (impact) and also improved imaging... All in comparison to the 650s. The 500s were also much faster, so music came across as more transparent, not like more real, but I just felt like some songs sounded more like I was standing there with the artist, as opposed to taking everything in as a recording. Sorry if this is hard to explain... It was nice on a lot of songs, but also changed what I liked about other recordings. I felt like they were worth buying though, so I pursued a pair.

Now with the TS tubes, I think the 650s are as good as they will ever sound to me, and the gap is smaller. The HE-500s properly driven would technically best the 650s, but sonic preference would lead me to keep the 650s.

In other news, the post was all messed after the Easter weekend, so I will have to wait a week until I'm back home to finally hear the LCD's. I'm hoping they're kind of like a mix between the 650s and 500s. Planars that still kind of retain the 650 signature...

 

[krsk77]

Hi,
That was my first comment and so far the experience with this forum is great. Thanks for the helpful answers. I think these headphones will suit some trance and drum&bass with the great open feeling. I have one question. What do you mena by "...the hd650 never seems to hit "as hard""? Thanks in advance and I think with this info I'll buy the HD650.

 

[Krutsch]

I honestly think they sound better on a SS setup.

 
Thanks for the detailed reply.
 
I've decided to move up to the WA2, in large part because of your thoughtful review, stick with my choices in dynamics (650 & 700) and be finished for awhile.
 
BTW, on your tube comment, think about a pair of TS 6520 or WE 421a ... it's a noticeable bump up from the 5998, IMO (I had a long post on that in the Woo thread).
 
Good luck with your new LCDs and let us know if you've found the prefect mix of planar and 650 sound! 

 

 

[raybone0566]

Hi,
That was my first comment and so far the experience with this forum is great. Thanks for the helpful answers. I think these headphones will suit some trance and drum&bass with the great open feeling. I have one question. What do you mena by "...the hd650 never seems to hit "as hard""? Thanks in advance and I think with this info I'll buy the HD650.

I think the 650's hit hard when called upon. On bass heavy tracks they have good impact and I'm somewhat of a bass head. Also I think it also depends on your amplification. My matrix m stage hits real hard and the 650's really hit hard with that pairing. But IMO they are not bass light.

 

[pietcux]

Today I persuaded a friend to let go of his DT880 and get a HD650 instead. He will because since he has the DT his Tinitus got worse. We already had a small meet some weeks ago where we compared the HD650 to the HE400i and to the DT880. He liked the HD650 instantly and to us the HE400i sounded also very good, but honestly didn't let the HD650 look old in comparison.

 

[krsk77]

How do you all think the HD650's will sound on a built in amp from an Onkyo receiver? Enough for a beginner?

 

[Solrighal]

  How do you all think the HD650's will sound on a built in amp from an Onkyo receiver? Enough for a beginner?

 
Well, you'll hear music. But they'll fall far short of their potential.

 

[Mr Rick]

  How do you all think the HD650's will sound on a built in amp from an Onkyo receiver? Enough for a beginner?

 
High impedance headphones, like the HD650s, should work fine on your Onkyo. Try them and you may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[krsk77]

Thanks, this makes my choice clear. I'll be (probably) a happy owner of the HD650 in a few days. I'll move one to a specific headphone amp in the future but for now, I think my Onkyo will do.