[penmarker]

I'd consider any DAC that sounds better than my onboard audio chip as good. I don't even need to spend much, an Aune T1 already sounds a lot better. So personally I think what defines "a good DAC" doesn't need a lengthy discussion.

 

[kotomikun]

Actually just the opposite - cheap dacs send lots of noise along with the music (not audible as noise but as a lack of transparency) and really good dacs are LESS colored..

Extremely cheap ones would do that, yeah, as would a good one in a badly-designed device. But I get the impression that it's a lot harder to find a perceptibly terrible DAC than it once was.

The main rule-of-thumb I've heard is that headphones make the biggest difference in sound quality, followed very distantly by amps, and even more distantly by DACs. The HD650 itself sounds a lot better than my old, and certainly not terrible, KNS8400. But it still took a bit of time to appreciate the difference. I'm having severe difficulty hearing any improvement, or change of any kind other than volume range, with a Magni 3. If the quality increase with a good(?) DAC would be even harder to hear... I'm not sure it's worth spending more money.

But I do still want to know if there's a specific thing one can listen for to notice how audio equipment improves the sound. I know there's more than one thing, but a conspicuous example would help. It's hard to know where to start when looking for a subtle change.

 

[gefski]

Extremely cheap ones would do that, yeah, as would a good one in a badly-designed device. But I get the impression that it's a lot harder to find a perceptibly terrible DAC than it once was.

The main rule-of-thumb I've heard is that headphones make the biggest difference in sound quality, followed very distantly by amps, and even more distantly by DACs. The HD650 itself sounds a lot better than my old, and certainly not terrible, KNS8400. But it still took a bit of time to appreciate the difference. I'm having severe difficulty hearing any improvement, or change of any kind other than volume range, with a Magni 3. If the quality increase with a good(?) DAC would be even harder to hear... I'm not sure it's worth spending more money.

But I do still want to know if there's a specific thing one can listen for to notice how audio equipment improves the sound. I know there's more than one thing, but a conspicuous example would help. It's hard to know where to start when looking for a subtle change.

If you can get to a meet with your 650, plug into some better upstream components and enjoy some music. Though not the most transparent can in the world, the 650 will easily reveal timbre, touch, and texture that is shockingly realistic and alive.

If you're committed to the rules of thumb you stated, just enjoy the 650.

 

[DavidA]

@kotomikun, try listening to a few tracks that you know really really well and hopefully of decent quality. The one thing that I will usually notice between DACs is how cymbals/high hats, violins, or acoustic guitars (I'm a former guitar player in a band) sound which is tied in to how the sound stage is presented (classic rock, string quartet, 3-4 person jazz group, large scale orchestra), another thing that sometimes sticks out is how detailed the bass/mid-bass sounds (standup bass, cello), and sometimes it could just be the timber of the mids (string quartet), female vocals (Nora Jones, Hikaru Utada, Karen Carpenter), trumpet (Chris Botti, Chuck Mangione, Alison Balsom - I'm a former trumpet player) or solo piano (ex-mother in-law was a piano teacher so heard recitals once a month for years) for me.

There is really no "one" thing that I can say to listen to since all music is so different. I'd also suggest putting together a list of songs to use as a test list and keep using these songs whenever you do a evaluation of gear. My list is 34 song long and has a wide range of tracks from classical, opera, rock/classic rock, jazz (acoustical & electronic), new age, Hawaiian. punk, R&B, easy listening, Kpop, and Jpop. This list hasn't changed much over the past 10 years, mostly FLAC with a few MP3 320 and 2 WAV.

Getting back to the HD650, I agree that its a boring sound at low listening levels (under 55dB), its why I have a few others that do sound great at low listening levels but since I don't usually listen at more than 75dB I don't usually worry too much about amps having enough power but rather the synergy between the headphone and amp which to me is more important that "power"

 

[Tuneslover]

If you ever get the opportunity to listen to a good DAC, you will change your mind.

I have a Mimby and Project Ember with an X5ii source on my night stand that I listen to (HD650) for an hour or so before I call it a night so I know very well how that setup sounds. Yesterday I decided to temporarily move the Mimby to my computer setup along side my Vali 2 and A2's for a few days. Well I sure could tell that the sound deteriorated on my night stand setup without the Mimby. With the X5ii feeding the Ember directly the sound was flat, boring and lifeless. A VERY obvious different sounding DAC in the X5ii, that's for sure. The difference in sound really surprised me...the Mimby will be going back sooner rather than later.

 

[kotomikun]

There is really no "one" thing that I can say to listen to since all music is so different.

What I mean by "one thing" is something like "this aspect of this instrument in this recording of this song, it has a really obvious difference between audio components."

This is drifting kind of off-topic... but I find it sort of hard to believe that a DAC would affect those things. Especially sound stage; there's only two audio channels, presumably processed separately? CD-quality audio sampling is effectively perfect if done correctly (https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html, as seen in the science forum), and even my mobo-dac can go up to 24bit/192khz. If it's not done correctly there could be noise or unwanted artifacts, but most tests of devices I've seen couldn't find anything like that creeping into the audible range.

There's evidence that amps matter, at least for things like the HD600 series with their widely variable high impedance, but it seems the difference is way more subtle than I expected. Or maybe modern motherboard amps can handle that sort of thing.

My guess is that extra amping only matters at much higher volumes than I'm comfortable with. I don't feel like the HD650 sounds abnormally worse at low volumes, but it's well-established that music generally sounds better louder, at least up to the point where it becomes uncomfortable (and that point varies from person to person). Our brains don't tell us the exact volume of anything; instead it seems like you get more detail and texture at higher volumes as inaudible components are raised into audible levels, and more loudness is more engaging and exciting (to most people). But better headphones also bring out more detail at any volume. So it's confusing. Scientific tests (that eliminate the loudness-makes-it-seem-better issue) could clear up a lot of the vague subjectiveness, but I haven't been able to find a whole lot of those.

 

[castleofargh]

What I mean by "one thing" is something like "this aspect of this instrument in this recording of this song, it has a really obvious difference between audio components."

This is drifting kind of off-topic... but I find it sort of hard to believe that a DAC would affect those things. Especially sound stage; there's only two audio channels, presumably processed separately? CD-quality audio sampling is effectively perfect if done correctly (https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html, as seen in the science forum), and even my mobo-dac can go up to 24bit/192khz. If it's not done correctly there could be noise or unwanted artifacts, but most tests of devices I've seen couldn't find anything like that creeping into the audible range.

There's evidence that amps matter, at least for things like the HD600 series with their widely variable high impedance, but it seems the difference is way more subtle than I expected. Or maybe modern motherboard amps can handle that sort of thing.

My guess is that extra amping only matters at much higher volumes than I'm comfortable with. I don't feel like the HD650 sounds abnormally worse at low volumes, but it's well-established that music generally sounds better louder, at least up to the point where it becomes uncomfortable (and that point varies from person to person). Our brains don't tell us the exact volume of anything; instead it seems like you get more detail and texture at higher volumes as inaudible components are raised into audible levels, and more loudness is more engaging and exciting (to most people). But better headphones also bring out more detail at any volume. So it's confusing. Scientific tests (that eliminate the loudness-makes-it-seem-better issue) could clear up a lot of the vague subjectiveness, but I haven't been able to find a whole lot of those.

sadly you can't really rationalize things that way. first because it assumes that most gears are properly made, that they will follow the exact same standards and measure as clean and transparent as modern technology allows for. and second, it assumes that people actually pick transparency when given a choice. in practice it's just not like that. in fact many "audiophile" gears have a sound of their own from design flaw or on purpose so that they can try and be different in an industry where fidelity is now too good to justify having so many brands doing the same thing.
and of course there is the tiny issue about listening conditions. it's right to assume that almost all people discussing in an audio forum will stick to sighted test and won't volume match any gear. so with that information, you adjust the confidence you put in their feedback(all the way down). it's also safe to assume that most of the grand doctrines you'll read, actually come from a frighteningly small number of anecdotes and as such belong more often to fallacies than to statistically relevant data and convincing arguments.
I hate it, but it would be silly to deny the situation we're in.

so in the end, you can find all kinds of gear, and the devices praised on the forum will surprisingly or not, rarely be the most transparent or electrically fit ones. that's so far from audiophile concerns that it is almost impossible to find relevant objective data on gears.
if you want to have DACs that sound different you can find them for sure, there is no lack of incompetent people and "audiophile grade" gear with a special sauce. if you don't level match anything then it's even easier to find as loudness is now a sound difference ^_^(well it is). on the other hand, if you want DACs sounding the same, that's also easy to find and it doesn't require thousands of dollars for my ears to fail a blind test with some songs I like.

 

[Àedhàn Cassiel]

Would you guys say there’s anything the HD650 does better than the LCD–2 given a very low budget for amplifying either?

 

[castleofargh]

Would you guys say there’s anything the HD650 does better than the LCD–2 given a very low budget for amplifying either?

it does being light on the head a great deal better. ^_^ it's not very audiophile but it's truly the reason why I never bought the LCD2 that I liked a lot(even more so for the older model).

 

[DavidA]

Would you guys say there’s anything the HD650 does better than the LCD–2 given a very low budget for amplifying either?

Like @castleofargh I'd have to also agree that the weight issue of the LCD-2 (any LCD series really) is one reason that my GF and most of her friends consider it a failure, what good is the best sounding headphone if you can't enjoy it if its too heavy, keeps falling off or shifting/moving every time you move your head?

There is one sound item that to me the HD650 does better than my LCD-2f, the smoothness of the mids to relax me no matter the genre that is used.

With the LCD-2 you should also mention which version since they sound different from 2.1/2.2 > 2014 Fazor > 2016 Fazor

 

[BobG55]

it does being light on the head a great deal better. ^_^ it's not very audiophile but it's truly the reason why I never bought the LCD2 that I liked a lot(even more so for the older model).

So I don't suppose you'd be able to listen to these headphones either :

 

[cskippy]

What in the world are those things?

 

[jimmers]

What in the world are those things?

Malvalve prototype headphones

 

[cskippy]

You mean prototype ear speakers! Thanks.

 

[castleofargh]

What in the world are those things?

the complete set comes with this headband accessory:

both nomad and stylish.