[DavidA]

  I'm not sure about the 400S, but the HD650 sounds great at low volumes to me.  I often will put something on rather low while I work on something else that needs my concentration.
 
I did own the 400i for awhile and found that it needed to be turned up a little more to get the bass response to be satisfactory. 

I think its a matter of how low, my normal listening level is 65-75dB where pretty much all headphone will sound about as good as they get but for going to sleep I have the level at 50-55dB where the ambient noise level in the room is 40-45dB.  This is where the elevated bass and treble of the MDR-7506 is great, it sounds over done at normal listening levels but at really low levels its like the old "loudness" switch on vintage hi-fi gear.

 

[Malfunkt]

I'm posting this here because it relates directly to the HD650, and I'm hoping that some of you who know this headphone so well can provide some guidance:

I listen to my music at relatively low volumes (I have a bit of sound sensitivity and my ears get fatigued quicker than the average listener).

From what I've read, the HiFiMan 400s has a more present & less laid-back bottom-end (with the hifiman focus pads or the brainwavz pads) than the HD600/650. It also seems like the 400s will have more presence/sparkle in the high-end as well.

So... I'm wondering if the 400s might be better at lower volumes?

In other words, do the HD600/650s need to be listened to at louder volumes in order for the bass and treble to really make themselves audible/present. Can I get the same audibility/presence from the 400s at a lower volume?

I appreciate that some of you cannot offer a comparison to the 400S, but I'd still love to here your thoughts on just the HD650 as it relates to this question.

In my experience with the hd650 they sound wonderful at low volumes, but sound their best at normal listening levels - and for very short periods sound spectacular a bit louder depending on the genre. For low volume listening, proper use EQ is fine - increase the low end and highs as desired and compensate with the gain - presto.

there is more to consider than just volume, what music genres would you mostly be using them for?

 

[TheEldestBoy]

In my experience with the hd650 they sound wonderful at low volumes, but sound their best at normal listening levels - and for very short periods sound spectacular a bit louder depending on the genre. For low volume listening, proper use EQ is fine - increase the low end and highs as desired and compensate with the gain - presto.

there is more to consider than just volume, what music genres would you mostly be using them for?

I pretty much listen to everything (jazz, classical, hip hop, rock, etc). So, one of my criteria is that the headphones are a good "all-rounder".

Thanks for your input - it's encouraging to read that the HD650's sound great at low-ish volumes (but of course they sound their best at normal/higher volumes).

Still not sure though if the HiFiMan 400s would be better for me though.

Do you think the HD 650 (or maybe the HD 600) would be good for the types of music I listen to? I'm wondering if the HD 650 might be too "slow", compared to the 400s.

 

[Malfunkt]

I pretty much listen to everything (jazz, classical, hip hop, rock, etc). So, one of my criteria is that the headphones are a good "all-rounder".

Thanks for your input - it's encouraging to read that the HD650's sound great at low-ish volumes (but of course they sound their best at normal/higher volumes).

Still not sure though if the HiFiMan 400s would be better for me though.

Do you think the HD 650 (or maybe the HD 600) would be good for the types of music I listen to? I'm wondering if the HD 650 might be too "slow", compared to the 400s.

The HD650 l, in my opinion, is the definition of an all rounder. You are going to be able to sit back and just enjoy a wide range of music with them. Right now they are my primary phone, even with my LCD2 being technically faster and with more precision, the HD650 just presents music in such a fine way. That's what you are getting with the 650, and you will still get its great presentation at low volumes. Just because they are described as "laid back" doesn't mean they don't have detail though. I find they are very resolving even on the high end, and work great for this reason at low volumes.

I actually very much like their bass, even though it doesn't hit like the LCD, it's slight bump helps them translate. Also, while the 650 can scale, don't shy away from using them with even standard fair. A lot of times I'm now just using them straight out of an iPhone 6 or even my PS4 dual shock 4! If I'm just sitting down to relax, play some games, watch Netflix or YouTube, the 650s are fine even with just this less than stellar source. a lot of times on this forum we are talking about how they scale up so well, but in another perspective, that they sound great out of lower end gear is also a benefit.

If you can get one at a great price go for it!

 

[TheEldestBoy]

The HD650 l, in my opinion, is the definition of an all rounder. You are going to be able to sit back and just enjoy a wide range of music with them. Right now they are my primary phone, even with my LCD2 being technically faster and with more precision, the HD650 just presents music in such a fine way. That's what you are getting with the 650, and you will still get its great presentation at low volumes. Just because they are described as "laid back" doesn't mean they don't have detail though. I find they are very resolving even on the high end, and work great for this reason at low volumes.

I actually very much like their bass, even though it doesn't hit like the LCD, it's slight bump helps them translate. Also, while the 650 can scale, don't shy away from using them with even standard fair. A lot of times I'm now just using them straight out of an iPhone 6 or even my PS4 dual shock 4! If I'm just sitting down to relax, play some games, watch Netflix or YouTube, the 650s are fine even with just this less than stellar source. a lot of times on this forum we are talking shot how they scale up so well, but in another perspective, that they sound great out of lower end gear is also a benefit.

If you can get one at a great price go for it!

I plan on pairing the HD650 with an iPhone and an Audioquest Dragonfly Red. Other posters have said the the DFR is a very good match for the HD650.

 

[numberandlocation]

I recently bought a pair of HD650s used from here and am slightly underwhelmed... The sound quality overall is better than anything else I've listened to however, a lot of the detail in songs I listen to regularly are muddled and not as clear as I'm used to hearing (for instance through my Piston 2s). I'm powering the HD650 with a Schiit Modi 2 uber and a Vali coming from FLACs through my macbook.

For example in Radiohead's Idioteque at around 1:18 (https://youtu.be/E7hvGPLexL0?t=1m17s) there is a backing vocal track that I'm used to hearing much more clearly. 

I'm trying to identify if this is an issue with a piece of equipment or if its just the nature of the HD650. Any ideas?

 

[audiojun]

I recently bought a pair of HD650s used from here and am slightly underwhelmed... The sound quality overall is better than anything else I've listened to however, a lot of the detail in songs I listen to regularly are muddled and not as clear as I'm used to hearing (for instance through my Piston 2s). I'm powering the HD650 with a Schiit Modi 2 uber and a Vali coming from FLACs through my macbook.


For example in Radiohead's Idioteque at around 1:18 (https://youtu.be/E7hvGPLexL0?t=1m17s) there is a backing vocal track that I'm used to hearing much more clearly. 


I'm trying to identify if this is an issue with a piece of equipment or if its just the nature of the HD650. Any ideas?

Well HD 650 has slightly recessed treble, the details are more subtle but it should all be there. IMO I find that the HD 650 will resolve all micro details from the source.

Muddy isn't a word I'd describe the HD 650, Unless the amp isn't able to control the bass it shouldn't be muddy.

I find that the HD 650 sounds more fuller and balanced with higher volume try to volume match the amount of treble from the HD650 to the same amount from your pistons.

 

[DavidA]

  I recently bought a pair of HD650s used from here and am slightly underwhelmed... The sound quality overall is better than anything else I've listened to however, a lot of the detail in songs I listen to regularly are muddled and not as clear as I'm used to hearing (for instance through my Piston 2s). I'm powering the HD650 with a Schiit Modi 2 uber and a Vali coming from FLACs through my macbook.

For example in Radiohead's Idioteque at around 1:18 (https://youtu.be/E7hvGPLexL0?t=1m17s) there is a backing vocal track that I'm used to hearing much more clearly. 

I'm trying to identify if this is an issue with a piece of equipment or if its just the nature of the HD650. Any ideas?

Which version of the HD-650 do you have?  By this I mean what color is the baffle under the grills, if its the newer version then it should be silver.
 
Might want to also read this: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650#QC07yAmLoK988CF7.97
 
Are you able to use another amp other than the Vali?

 

[numberandlocation]

Yeah I read that innerfidelity article while doing research on what pair of headphones to buy. I was looking for something that has a lot of clarity but also adds a bit of warmth which seemed like the HD650 would be perfect for. I have the newer version with silver drivers. I used the E10k with it for a few days before selling it and upgrading my set up to the Vali + Modi. Also, I recently ordered the Crack with Speedball upgrade for Bottlehead's sale so I'll see if that makes a good amount of difference. From my understanding the Speedball upgrade is supposed to improve the clarity a good amount.

Testing what audiojun recommend about listening at a higher volume has improved the clarity a bit. Normally I listen to somewhere between 8-10 "o'clock" on the Vali and turning it up to about 11-12 brightens the highs a good amount. The only issue is that I listen a lot while I'm working so I don't want to damage my hearing with higher volumes for extended periods of time.
 
Being pretty new to high quality headphones, I haven't nailed down all the jargon yet so I'm not sure if I'm describing what I hear correctly. To reiterate, the overall sound quality of these are really good but for songs I've listened to enough to be familiar with every sound the HD650s don't quite separate the sounds as much as I'm used to. So when people say that they discover new things in their music while listening to these I feel like I am actually taking a step back instead of diving deeper into the music. Could this be whats described as the "laid back sound" or "veil"?

 

[DavidA]

  Yeah I read that innerfidelity article while doing research on what pair of headphones to buy. I was looking for something that has a lot of clarity but also adds a bit of warmth which seemed like the HD650 would be perfect for. I have the newer version with silver drivers. I used the E10k with it for a few days before selling it and upgrading my set up to the Vali + Modi. Also, I recently ordered the Crack with Speedball upgrade for Bottlehead's sale so I'll see if that makes a good amount of difference. From my understanding the Speedball upgrade is supposed to improve the clarity a good amount.

Testing what audiojun recommend about listening at a higher volume has improved the clarity a bit. Normally I listen to somewhere between 8-10 "o'clock" on the Vali and turning it up to about 11-12 brightens the highs a good amount. The only issue is that I listen a lot while I'm working so I don't want to damage my hearing with higher volumes for extended periods of time.
 
Being pretty new to high quality headphones, I haven't nailed down all the jargon yet so I'm not sure if I'm describing what I hear correctly. To reiterate, the overall sound quality of these are really good but for songs I've listened to enough to be familiar with every sound the HD650s don't quite separate the sounds as much as I'm used to. So when people say that they discover new things in their music while listening to these I feel like I am actually taking a step back instead of diving deeper into the music. Could this be whats described as the "laid back sound" or "veil"?

I think the BH Crack will get you some or most of that clarity that you feel you are missing but try the BH Crack without the speedball upgrade first since some do like it without.  I also suggest finding some TS-5998 (pricy) or Chatham 5998 (economical) power tube and either RCA clear top or Telefunken 12AU7 driver.  They make a fairly noticeable difference to me.
 
And for listening at lower volume you might was to try some EQ.
 
Is your Vali the original or the Vali2 where you can change the tube?

 

[audiojun]

No one should damage their ears but just saying if you can't hear enough of the treble with the HD 650 then it's probably not loud enough. The sound balances out due to how our ears and mind perceive equal loudness and yes the HD 650 is more neutral when it's louder.

I adjust headphones based on how loud the treble gets since treble is more likely to damage our ears. I listen to my HD 800 at a lower volume than the HD 650.

 

[numberandlocation]

  I think the BH Crack will get you some or most of that clarity that you feel you are missing but try the BH Crack without the speedball upgrade first since some do like it without.  I also suggest finding some TS-5998 (pricy) or Chatham 5998 (economical) power tube and either RCA clear top or Telefunken 12AU7 driver.  They make a fairly noticeable difference to me.
 
And for listening at lower volume you might was to try some EQ.
 
Is your Vali the original or the Vali2 where you can change the tube?

 
 
Thanks for the tube suggestions, I've been looking at what ones to get but there are way too many choices. I have the original Vali with the small built in tubes.

 

[DavidA]

   
 
Thanks for the tube suggestions, I've been looking at what ones to get but there are way too many choices. I have the original Vali with the small built in tubes.

I tried the original Vali that you have and I think that is your bottleneck at the moment.  Its a good starter tube amp but I think the HD-650 can be so much better with gear to match its capabilities.

 

[Koolpep]

I tried the original Vali that you have and I think that is your bottleneck at the moment.  Its a good starter tube amp but I think the HD-650 can be so much better with gear to match its capabilities.

+1 had the Vali too for a few months and sold it eventually.

Cheers.

 

[Malfunkt]

 
Being pretty new to high quality headphones, I haven't nailed down all the jargon yet so I'm not sure if I'm describing what I hear correctly. To reiterate, the overall sound quality of these are really good but for songs I've listened to enough to be familiar with every sound the HD650s don't quite separate the sounds as much as I'm used to. So when people say that they discover new things in their music while listening to these I feel like I am actually taking a step back instead of diving deeper into the music. Could this be whats described as the "laid back sound" or "veil"?

 
When I got my first pair of HD650s several years back I was initially a bit underwhelmed. But the more I listened the more I noticed that yes they are 'laid-back' yet have refinement and extraordinary balance. It sounds strange, but it can take time to become familiar with the signature of a new pair of headphones. 
 
With your Pistons, you are hearing a different presentation with them being an in-ear monitor.  My Sony MDR-7550s, in many ways seem like they have a lot more detail than the 650s, and in some ways they do, especially on the low-end. My MDR-7520s a closed headphone will also present the details more upfront, in large part to their tuning. 
 
I think if you want the kind of micro-detail of an IEM in an open back you may need to look towards the HD800, HE560, LCD series or Elear (haven't heard it).
 
Just give them time, before running out and buying a slew of source  gear / amps (though I'm not familiar with the Vali, and for the most part listen to solid state with the 650 as they are warm enough imo).