[CanadianMaestro]

Wrong thread for this. Get over to the HE400/LCD threads for this stuff.

 

[q2klepto]

  Wrong thread for this. Get over to the HE400/LCD threads for this stuff.

 
My bad - added spoilers as to not clutter the thread. Sorry bout that. 

 

[CanadianMaestro]

No worries. I've seen worse.
 
It's too bad the pads on the 650 can't be experimented on (switched out). Short of cabling tweaks (not keen on that), and amping (have 3 of da best already), I'm not sure what else to do to bring out more micro-details. Not day and night, like I hinted at. I guess it's expecting too much to have it even close to a planar mag like LCD-2.2.  Must be my Sunday afternoon brain haze and delusion.....

 

[kman1211]

  Man they really stick it to you on their "money back guarantee" 15% restocking, on top of the shipping you had to pay, and you have to pay to ship it back. I might be better off putting it on craigslist.
 
I think I know part of the problem. I've been comparing the specs and the DAC chip they have in the Modi is decent, same class as the E5, but it outputs 1.5vrms. All of the DAC's people seem to rave about have 2 to 2.5vrms out. I suspect that the Modi is under-driving the preamp on the Lyr leading to mud. I can't find the specs on the E5's line out voltage but hot swapping using WASPI push at max volume, the Soundblaster is louder than the Modi. If I had to guess I'd say it's 2vrms to the Modi 2 ubers 1.5. This puts it on par with the Bitfrost.
 
I think I'm going to just have to bite the bullet on this and buy another DAC, I didn't spend half a grand on an amp to have the DAC make it sound like poo.
 
I'm thinking to get the musicstreamer ii plus. I've seen several recommendations around the board and I remember looking at those before I bought my Audioengine and hearing good things. It's $250, asynch, outputs 2.5vrms and has an isolated analog stage to keep usb noise out of the signal path. What do you guys think? I admit I dind't research Modi 2 reviews much before buying. It was only $150 and at half the price I was impressed heavily by their Fulla.

I had the HRT Music Streamer II+ for a while, I enjoyed that DAC, the sound was rich, full-bodied, detailed, dynamic, clear, and transparent. It really came to life when I had the Wyrd behind it. I replaced it with the HRT Music Streamer HD later on. 

 

[JacobLee89]

  No worries. I've seen worse.
 
It's too bad the pads on the 650 can't be experimented on (switched out). Short of cabling tweaks (not keen on that), and amping (have 3 of da best already), I'm not sure what else to do to bring out more micro-details. Not day and night, like I hinted at. I guess it's expecting too much to have it even close to a planar mag like LCD-2.2.  Must be my Sunday afternoon brain haze and delusion.....

 
I guess I am quite envious of those whom are able to hear micro-details, and rather fortunate (pocket wise) that I am slightly impaired to them. 
 
Tinitus seems to save money..
 
I know that with the right amp, the HD650's have amazing tone. Micro details with a HD650's is something I haven't really looked into, which now piques my interest. How does the HD650's represent these details with those set-ups?

 

[mikoss]

Extremely well. You also don't need a crazy expensive amp either... If you get a chance, try a tube buffered DAC that can roll 6dj8's. The Siemens CCa's do a great job with details. Haven't tried them with the Lyr 2 or Ember. I'm sure some SS amps can bring them out as well... Maybe someone can chime in.

 

[JacobLee89]

Thanks for your insight!
 
I have learnt so far that HD650's seem to enjoy voltage more than current. I don't know what this means in terms of electronics, but I guess I can't go wrong if I chose the amps which have good voltage output.
 
I use an output modded O2 (so it can squeeze itself closer to a 15V output), and have been pretty happy with the results, details are - at least to my ears - quite good. Though of course I can imagine other amps which can do the HD650's plenty of good.
 
Right now my next amp is a fully DIY one (apart from ordering the board) called the SeNNator, which is designed specifically for the HD650s'. Currently awaiting two deliveries - I always miss out a few things - and I may ,with luck, report back in this coming week!
 
As for frequency response from this amp. I don't know how to get the most out of this chart, but these are the measured results that I should expect:
 
Red: without
Green: with
 

 
It says kameleon, but the filter design remains the same as far as I understand.

 

[iancraig10]

I think the SeNNator goes an ovtave deeper than the Kameleon. Frans has now completed a filter for the HD600 which is also excellent.

 

[DDDamian]

@mikoss - that Cavelli should be a nice addition! I've just ordered some cables for my HD-650's from q2klepto as well - I like what he did with the first pair I bought. Similar to the above but in midnight blue and light brown. My stock cable seems to pick up a lot and it's irritating. It first I though it was a tube but I can almost play my stock cable and make a tune lol. doesn't happen with my SS amp so something's feeding back into the tubes and getting re-amplified.

 

[castleofargh]

  Thanks for your insight!
 
I have learnt so far that HD650's seem to enjoy voltage more than current. I don't know what this means in terms of electronics, but I guess I can't go wrong if I chose the amps which have good voltage output.
 
I use an output modded O2 (so it can squeeze itself closer to a 15V output), and have been pretty happy with the results, details are - at least to my ears - quite good. Though of course I can imagine other amps which can do the HD650's plenty of good.
 
Right now my next amp is a fully DIY one (apart from ordering the board) called the SeNNator, which is designed specifically for the HD650s'. Currently awaiting two deliveries - I always miss out a few things - and I may ,with luck, report back in this coming week!
 
As for frequency response from this amp. I don't know how to get the most out of this chart, but these are the measured results that I should expect:
 
Red: without
Green: with
 

 
It says kameleon, but the filter design remains the same as far as I understand.

maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't it be done with a good EQ?

 

[CanadianMaestro]

   
I guess I am quite envious of those whom are able to hear micro-details, and rather fortunate (pocket wise) that I am slightly impaired to them. 
 
Tinitus seems to save money..
 
I know that with the right amp, the HD650's have amazing tone. Micro details with a HD650's is something I haven't really looked into, which now piques my interest. How does the HD650's represent these details with those set-ups?

Part of micro-detailing includes hearing the ambience of the recording venue, as well as instrumental textures (the sharp twang of a violin's strings as the bow is pulled back on a soloist's cadenza is one example). It doesn't necessarily mean very low-level sounds. A lot of it has to do with good separation between closely-positioned instruments. It may not all have to do with just the 650. I suspect upstream gear would play a big role as well.

 

[JacobLee89]

 
maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't it be done with a good EQ?

 
I believe that "laziness is the mother of all invention", is an overkill of a statement right now..
 
I believe Frans has said something upon this matter. Being a complete lazy bum that I am. I have copy/paste 'd the section from his Kameleon amp documentation:
 

  Some players have reasonable performing tone-controls/equalizers that can be used to (partly) correct the tonal balance of the connected headphones. Most tone controls/equalizers are limited in frequency bands/bandwidth to provide accuratecorrections. Rockbox has one of the few quite usable parametric EQ with presets and works quite well. Software equalizers do add artifacts and/or noise and exhibit pre-ringing inside the audible band. You would need to create presets for individual headphones based on frequency plots of headphones or 'by ear'. Most audiophiles shiver when they hear the word 'EQ' and with good reason as EQ certainly cannot solve all technical problems / shortcomings, but it can improve tonal accuracy.
 
Analog filters have certain advantages over digital filters, amongst them no pre-ringing and less distortion.

 

[Kodhifi]

  This thing about the Modi 2 Uber is interesting to me too. Not the financial side of it really because at the moment I'm skint but the sound quality angle. I use an ODAC & since I've now upgraded to the Project Ember Mk2 amp I'm hearing what's often referred to as the achilles heel of the Sabre chip - namely treble glare.
 
On another forum I'm active on I've asked around & the general consensus has been that, for the price, I should be looking at the Modi 2 Uber.
 
Given that Kodhifi hears "mud" from his DAC and I hear "glare" from my DAC I'm now very confused. Is it just perception? Is it a mis-match of components? If we lived on the same continent I'd be happy to swap for a time to see what the issue is but that's not going to happen.
 
Here's an off-the-wall question..
 
I read some posts back that the only difference between Modi 1 & Modi 2 Uber was the "enhanced analogue circuitry". But there's a more significant difference than that. Modi 2 runs off mains power as opposed to USB.
 
Is it plugged in to the wall mate?
 
Gordon.

You have to plug it into the wall or there is no audio. It's a weird one, usb without power it detects, windows can stream to it, but the front button doesn't function and no audio out of the RCA jacks. You have to power it. I don't think it's defective, it's just not very good, certainly worse than what I already had. I know a lot is made of oversampling and filters, but in my experience the analog output stage of a DAC matters as least as much as the chip itself. I have done several AB tests with my various DAC's and onboard audio and my first impression was correct. The Modi2 is the worst sounding of the bunch. It's hard to describe the sound other than to say it's lifeless, on the saturated/warm/boomy side, and it sounds compressed dynamically. If you took a signal, added a compressor to the path, overdrove the sound very slightly, and increased 130-200hz by about 2-3db you would get an approximation of what i'm hearing with the modi 2 and lyr. This is the first dud I've got from Schiit. I have absolutely loved the fulla and Lyr 2 but the Fulla just isn't suited to driving an amp, and the E5 has it's own quarks.
 
I've ordered a MS2+ from Amazon and since I've never heard bad audio in the half dozen DAC's I've used I'm not expecting to be disappointed in spite of it's meager $250 price tag. I will probably craigslist the Modi2 or gift it since the refund would only be partial and I'd have to spend time and money shipping it back. I can definitely afford them both, I've spent a couple grand on this hobby in the last few months but I try not to throw money away. Each purchase has been a gain except for the Modi.
 
I spent 8 hours listening to the Modi and my HE400 last night checking out Tidal's FLAC streaming. It wasn't terrible but was underwhelming. I finally gave up and re-connected the E5 and it was like pulling cotton out of my ears, ripping a compressor out of my audio stage, and turning off a high pass filter all in one. Highs are dynamic again, the midrange is more audible, and sub bass is back.

 

[Kodhifi]

   
I didn't say anything like that and I don't believe that only expensive is good.
 
On the second item, I didn't comment on the sound or quality, which is NOT fair game if you don't own one; I commented on their return policies, which are clearly documented on their web site.
 
I offered my $0.02 because, well, you asked.
 
EDIT: typo.

Fair enough mate. I'm frustrated and I apologize if I was rude.
 
 
Regarding the other posts about micro detailing, I can only assume you're talking about subtlety in the sound like the sound of air around a bass guitar string, the slap back of a drum hit off the studio wall that you almost can't hear, etc. The planar I own is more detailed in the upper registers than the 650 but it's also uncomfortably bright sometimes. I find I can get a lot of detail out of the 650 especially after it broke in a bit and I have my suspicions why the 650 does well and why planars tend to do better. When a planar moves the membrane, it fires more or less all at the same time. When a dynamic driver fires, it begins moving under the voice coil first, and spreads out like a ripple in a pond. This slight delay and modal breakup, isn't generally audible but there is one area where it stands out bright as day. Phase. It's the same thing I listen for when doing ABX tests with mp3, flac, etc. You don't usually hear the difference between 320kbps and flac as wishy washyness like in the old days, but you can hear it in echos and phase. The orthos I think reproduce the original phase of the audio path with more accuracy and they can better reproduce the subtle phase shifts that tell your ears and your head where an instrument is in a mix and in transients like the roll off of a sound after the attack. I'll give you an easy example. In your listening room, turn off anything that might make noise and then clap your hands loudly and try to listen to the sound the room reflects back right after the impact. You can hear it pretty easily live, but if you were to record the clap, and listen back on typical headphones, you would be hard pressed to hear that detail with the same accuracy as in person. The orthos render that phase detail faster and more uniform imo. One of the areas in music where this matters a lot are percussive cymbals. You can hear their upper harmonics on any good headphone, but they tend to sound a little like white noise, where as an ortho tends to recreate the sizzle you hear in person. The 650 is one of the best dynamic headphones I've heard and I can only assume it's because of their voice coil design, and the shape and stiffness of the driver. It's superior, but it's not an ortho.

 

[castleofargh]

 

 
maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't it be done with a good EQ?

 
I believe that "laziness is the mother of all invention", is an overkill of a statement right now..
 
I believe Frans has said something upon this matter. Being a complete lazy bum that I am. I have copy/paste 'd the section from his Kameleon amp documentation:
 

  Some players have reasonable performing tone-controls/equalizers that can be used to (partly) correct the tonal balance of the connected headphones. Most tone controls/equalizers are limited in frequency bands/bandwidth to provide accuratecorrections. Rockbox has one of the few quite usable parametric EQ with presets and works quite well. Software equalizers do add artifacts and/or noise and exhibit pre-ringing inside the audible band. You would need to create presets for individual headphones based on frequency plots of headphones or 'by ear'. Most audiophiles shiver when they hear the word 'EQ' and with good reason as EQ certainly cannot solve all technical problems / shortcomings, but it can improve tonal accuracy.
 
Analog filters have certain advantages over digital filters, amongst them no pre-ringing and less distortion.

lol.  well I disagree with the digital vs analog filter, as you can (at least on a computer) hope to simulate the behavior of analog filters if you feel like it. but I certainly agree that EQ is a scary word for most, and that using one correctly does require work and time(at least for people who suck at setting one by ear like .... myself ^_^).