[joaogma]

I have a personal experience to share.
 
Bought two pairs to compare and decide which to keep. X2 and HD650. Tried to burn-in the X2 for two days straight, didnt noticed any difference brand-new and burned. 48 Hours of burn-in. I ended up returning these because i didn't like their sound. It isn't clear at any frequency, at all. The X2 has a strong presence in the sub-bass frequency range, though.
 
Now, the HD650. I didn't like the sound when I got them (my main headphone at that time was the bassy IE-80 IEM), but I knew that I could get used to it because these cans had a great level of detail and the most important thing, for a long time, I didn't noticed anything "new" in my music, even trying the X2, and the HD650 revealed new details on my collection. I kept using them, no AFK burn-in or white noise tracks, just the music and me. Now I'm used to the sound signature, and I'm actually in love with these cans.
 
I don't believe in driver burn-in. I believe in brain burn-in.

 

[kman1211]

  I have a personal experience to share.
 
Bought two pairs to compare and decide which to keep. X2 and HD650. Tried to burn-in the X2 for two days straight, didnt noticed any difference brand-new and burned. 48 Hours of burn-in. I ended up returning these because i didn't like their sound. It isn't clear at any frequency, at all. The X2 has a strong presence in the sub-bass frequency range, though.
 
Now, the HD650. I didn't like the sound when I got them (my main headphone at that time was the bassy IE-80 IEM), but I knew that I could get used to it because these cans had a great level of detail and the most important thing, for a long time, I didn't noticed anything "new" in my music, even trying the X2, and the HD650 revealed new details on my collection. I kept using them, no AFK burn-in or white noise tracks, just the music and me. Now I'm used to the sound signature, and I'm actually in love with these cans.
 
I don't believe in driver burn-in. I believe in brain burn-in.

So the X2 doesn't really sound clear? I am curious about them, but the mixed reviews about their clarity worries me as that tends to really bother me and people mentioning a lack of clarity is sometimes a sign of a grainy sound in my experience. Though sometimes a lack of clarity is sometimes simply a synergy issue, I'll have to audition the X2 myself sometime. The HD 650 is a great phone that has stood the test of time, I'm not surprised you love their sound. 

 

[Guidostrunk]

Um. I'm trying not to derail this thread. I really don't care. When I post something, it's an opinion on how I feel about something that I'm currently experiencing. People can take it however they choose too. That's their problem.

To steer this train in the right direction. The HD-650 are the best phones I've heard to date. Lol

One could try using "I think" or "from what I've observed" and so forth to make it clear that the statement(s) posted are opinions.  There are plenty of synonymous phrases for "in my opinion", and occasionally just tweaking your post's wording is enough without having to throw in "in my opinion" and similar phrases altogether somewhere in there.

 

[daltonlanny]

I have a personal experience to share.

Bought two pairs to compare and decide which to keep. X2 and HD650. Tried to burn-in the X2 for two days straight, didnt noticed any difference brand-new and burned. 48 Hours of burn-in. I ended up returning these because i didn't like their sound. It isn't clear at any frequency, at all. The X2 has a strong presence in the sub-bass frequency range, though.

Now, the HD650. I didn't like the sound when I got them (my main headphone at that time was the bassy IE-80 IEM), but I knew that I could get used to it because these cans had a great level of detail and the most important thing, for a long time, I didn't noticed anything "new" in my music, even trying the X2, and the HD650 revealed new details on my collection. I kept using them, no AFK burn-in or white noise tracks, just the music and me. Now I'm used to the sound signature, and I'm actually in love with these cans.

I don't believe in driver burn-in. I believe in brain burn-in.

I disagree about the clarity thing on the X2, but thats ok.
I feel the HD650 and the X2 are neck and neck in the clarity department.
My X2's did improve in clarity over a few days though, and my headphone amp really brought them to life, as far as clarity goes.
The sub bass, clarity, dynamics, and soundstaging are excellent on my X2.
Now, the HD650 does have a somewhat more natural, lovely, transparent, organic tone, especially in the mids, and excellent top-end extension, but it is somewhat lower in level than the mids.
Again, I love them both for different reasons, and they are both keepers in my book.

 

[Mad Max]

Um. I'm trying not to derail this thread. I really don't care. When I post something, it's an opinion on how I feel about something that I'm currently experiencing. People can take it however they choose too. That's their problem.

To steer this train in the right direction. The HD-650 are the best phones I've heard to date. Lol

 
But you do care, in my opinion. 

 
HD650 is certainly one of the best headphones I've tried so far.  I'm quite happy to have it in my collection alongside T90, K701, and ATH-A2000X.

 

[Krutsch]

  Thinking further. I guess one could replace tubes that have been burned-in for fifty hours, with a pair fresh out of the box and hear sonic differences.  I'm not a tube roller but now I wonder if I should be. 

 
The litmus test is this: do you have a spare pile of cash lying around that you normally use to light cigars, but you are out of cigars, at the moment?  

 
Tongue-in-cheek, of course, and I am having huge fun with it all (I've been posting updates on my journey in the Woo thread). It turned into a lot of $$ for me because I wanted to experience first hand the sound signatures of different tubes. I keep meaning to publish my "findings", but I still have a few more tubes coming in (I am trying to fill-out the Woo compatibility matrix for the WA2/3).
 
...that, and I am just really, really enjoying the sound of my current setup. I used to (secretly, quietly, with darting eyes) complain about the mythical 650 Veil, but with my current glass the veil is a distant memory.

 

[olor1n]

I've perceived burn-in with some headphones, dacs, amps and most certainly tubes. I didn't notice a significant change in the 2 HD650s I've owned though. Wear on the pads and acclimatising to the HD650's flavour are likely reasons for the perceived changes people embellish.

 

[JamieMcC]

   
The thing is, the HD650 isn't made out of some alien spacecraft material with a design that nothing else uses.

 
Please provide your source to of this information other wise its just your opinion

 

   
It's a dynamic driver like every other dynamic headphone.

 
Why doesn't it sound like my other dynamic headphones if they are all the same?
 

   
 It has absolutely no qualities to it that makes it uniquely susceptible to burn in. If it burns in, so do all headphones with dynamic drivers and vice versa.

 
Does this mean that every manufacture uses the same implementation for their drivers or might a manufacturer that uses its own proprietary method of selecting materials and construction just by chance mean their can be noticeable differences between them. Would you agree this is a possibility?
 
 
Quote:

 
You use the "with my own ears" thing as though human perception is infallible. That's sort of like saying eyewitness testimony is always perfect. There have been too many cases of people positively identifying suspects who were proven not to be anywhere near the scene of the crime. Unless you had two pairs of 650 drivers, one burned in and one not, and you could tell in a blind test which were in your headphones, anecdotes mean zilch. You can find people saying pretty much anything about any headphone. Isn't there a person in here saying the HD600 has punchier bass than the HD650?

If ten or twenty people give eye witness and identify a suspect or a headphone trait  how much room for doubt then? Why does it need to be measured to be a fact just because YOU might not be able to detect the same occurrences does not mean it doesn't exist.
 
Quote:

 
Unless you had two pairs of 650 drivers, one burned in and one not, and you could tell in a blind test which were in your headphones, anecdotes mean zilch. You can find people saying pretty much anything about any headphone.

 
I agree there are plenty of people spouting off all kinds of gobbledegook here just look at my own postings here

 
Quote:

 
Personal experience is useful when talking about subjective matters. If you and I differ about what headphone is better than what other headphone that's valid because we're talking about opinion, but this is not a subjective matter. Either burn-in exists or it does not. This is not a matter of opinion, one answer is objectively and factually correct, whichever it may be. Ergo simply saying "I heard burn-in" and me going "well I didn't hear burn-in" gets us absolutely nowhere.

 
Burn in can be dependent on the implementation and componentry used there are many types of the same component type, many will use differing materials and methods of construction. Just because burn in is not noticeable for one does not mean you can ASSUME that it is not noticeable on another.
 
Assuming still gets me into plenty of hot water with the wife!
 
 
Quote:

 
Without some kind of measurement that shows a technical alteration in a headphone over time there's no evidence to support this claim.
 

 A favourite quote of mine "There are lies, damn lies and then statistics"!  O2 users love statistics because they can then prove how wonderfully there amps measures. Its just a shame they don't sound so wonderful (imo of course)
 
Statistics are only meaningful if those doing the measuring know what they want to measure and how to measure it in the first case. The plain fact is this is also a very subjective area with differing methods used to obtain many readings.
 
Quote:

 
The REASON I keep yapping about this isn't some personal "boy I sure hate that Zorro fella" but rather that when this kind of stuff gets pushed out there, it's more flim-flam that makes life harder for people trying to find their way along in this hobby. It's something that leads to situations where people insist that if you don't like the headphone out of the BOX, it's because it needs BURN IN and well if you can't hear it then I guess you're some weak-eared plebeian unlike all of us over hear admiring the Emperor's New Headphones. I heard someone insisting, INSISTING, that the Mikros 90 needed FIVE HUNDRED HOURS of burn-in. Unless you literally had it playing music 24/7, according to that guy the return period would expire way before the things burned in. Which doesn't even touch upon the myriad reasons why burn-in doesn't make sense on its own merits. 

 
I welcome such opinions they can be very helpful when researching a new pair of headphones, I can choose to follow up with further research myself or just  leave them. At least it has brought to my attention a potential issue.
 

 
As is always the case, claims require evidence and until someone can actually offer something concrete to show that burn-in is a real phenomenon, I wish people would just stop muddying the waters. Put on your headphones. Listen to them. Enjoy them. If you don't enjoy them, get different headphones. You don't have to wait for some magical time period to elapse before you're allowed to say "no I don't like these." 

 
Why is evidence always needed many things are not black and white in this mixed up mad world we live in. 
 
There are billions of people on this earth that believe in many different religions none of them can be proved yet wars are still fought because religion A wants to ethnically cleans religon B from the face of the earth because it doesn't subscribe to its own skewed way of thinking.
 
I hope your not trying to convert us to your way (the only way) of thinking? There are not many sheep here ,you would be better off on the Schiit or 02 threads

and the HD650 thread bb should be free from biased preaching.
 
No offence intended, we just seem to have different ways of looking at things.

 

[kman1211]

 A favourite quote of mine "There are lies, damn lies and then statistics"!  O2 users love statistics because they can then prove how wonderfully there amps measures. Its just a shame they don't sound so wonderful (imo of course)
 
Statistics are only meaningful if those doing the measuring know what they want to measure and how to measure it in the first case. The plain fact is this is also a very subjective area with differing methods used to obtain many readings.
 

"There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics!" is one of my favorite quotes as well. I've taken 2 statistics classes in my university so far, both emphasized the importance of that quote and just how easy and often statistics is abused whether intentionally or unintentionally and shows and explained exactly how it can be abused and how easy it's to misuse statistics. Gives you a new perspective and understanding when viewing scientific and statistical data and journals and how wrong it can be even if it's something widely accepted just by checking if the data holds up or not. Things in general are more subjective than many people want to admit and there is the insistence to put a ruler on everything even when it's the wrong way to go about it. Gotta love the messed up world of modern academia. 

 

[Guidostrunk]

Lol

But you do care, in my opinion. 

HD650 is certainly one of the best headphones I've tried so far.  I'm quite happy to have it in my collection alongside T90, K701, and ATH-A2000X.

 

[crafft]

In my system the HD650 make a really, really great pair of hp's. But must confess I had to tweak a bit before sounding their best.
 
System:
MBP using Audirvana software connected with Furutech Formula usb-cable to a Marantz HD DAC1. The HD DAC1 is a very capable amp to let the HD650's "sing" their best!!
This dac/amp has three gain settings. For the HD650 the "Mid" setting gives you a more weighty presentation and the "High" setting a more rhythmic presentation. I don't use the "Low" setting with the HD650 (although you can and it'll sound fine too).
 
Audirvana settings (for the Apple addicts ....).
 
iZotope algorithm (for example in above system my DT880 sounds better with Apple's core audio algorithm)
parameters:
steepness: 7 dB
filter max. length: 1.300.000 samples
cut off freq.: 1.02 Nyquist
anti aliasing: 200
pre-ringing: 0.85
 
And NO upsampling (all my other cans (DT880, Focal Spirit Pro, HD25-1-II, KRK8400, SR80i) sound better with up sampling enabled by forces 2x with 44.1/88.2/96 kHz material; but not the HD650/Marantz combo to my ears)
 
HD650 modification:
I've replaced the dense stock foam discs between driver and grill with a much lesser dense foam disc (DIY 10 minute project and used the less dense foam inserts from spare set of HD25-1-II ear pads and cut out the discs).
 
This set-up gives me a very involving sound. Shivers down my spine kinda music with good recordings!!
 
I love them. 

 

[ButtUglyJeff]

  Recently purchased the HD650's but still feel like they need a DAC/Amp to make them really sing. My iPhone 6+ just doesn't seem to cut it.

 
HiFi-M8.....
 
.....just sayin

 

[castleofargh]

such a care about how good measurements and statistics are, but so little care about how bad a human is at remembering audio accurately over time(studies say that the accuracy of our audio memory can starts failing us after 3to 5seconds, so imagine a month ^_^), or simply the state of mind we're in, the new toy effect, the fact that the first day you will listen to the headphone like you will probably never again listen to it, paying so much attention to stuff that even if it's the same you will perceive it altered because of the extra attention.
 
all in all, people are arguing about proving that burn in is real, but nobody cares about how wrong we are when we talk about a sound we heard last month. we don't memorize the sound, we will memorize something like: "more bass than that other headphone, good soundstage, treble a little rolled off, voice not natural, 2guitars on that track, damn I hate drummers..."
with no concrete value or actual reference to rely on. and as time passes, more bass may become "too much bass". with the general tendency to exaggerate everything as time goes. good stuff will become even better in our mind, and bad stuff will turn to worst. don't trust me, go read about human memory and see for yourself.
so we remember no precise value, instead we keep concepts. and those concepts are then inflated. how relevant is that faced to actually listening to the headphone a month later, and pretending like you can confront those 2 sets of data on equal terms(what a joke)? and of course you would use the exact same loudness right?

because we all know how important loudness matching is when testing anything.
maybe before pretending to be experts about audio, it would be good to start by learning a little bit about that main measurement tool that is us? and what it can and cannot do well.
  you want to know for real and not just pretend to know on a forum, find a way to measure the headphone, and use the same pads for the measurements when you would otherwise use another pair for yourself. so that you can hope to measure real changes and not just the pad changing shape with time. remember the loudness, mark with great precision the placement of the headphone on the measurement tool. else, just go ask Tyll how much differences you can get.
but even doing that well would be hard and not necessarily conclusive.
 
I don't think the burn-in debate is idiotic, it's actually something very complicated and interesting, be it called burn in, or wearing, or growing old, or decaying, or be assimilated to a law of thermodynamic. it's most likely one and the same. but plz stop it with the subjective opinions based on nothing. it's helping nobody and the odds are that you're anecdotal experience is just you lying without knowing it.
 
 
 
Quote:

   A favourite quote of mine "There are lies, damn lies and then statistics"! 

I personally also like to show this:

 

 

[retskrad]

Can somebody explain the engineering behind the smooth vocals hd650 produces? The vocals has a unique human touch, or something that other headphones doesnt have. The highs arent recessed, they are detailed but not fatiguing like my dt990. Arent the human voice frequency all over the place? How did Sennheiser make the vocals never harsh, doesnt matter what recording you play?
 
IMO, vocals are the hd650 strongest suit and the one area where its differentiating over other headphones, even the flagship hd800, which lacks the human touch the hd650 possess..  Its quite a marvel in engineering!
 
Although I have sold my hd650s, its quite sad that new modern dynamic and planar headphones cant hold  a candle against  the magic mids of the hd650. Quite impressive after all these years. 

 

[donlin]

Please provide your source to of this information other wise its just your opinion :atsmile:


Why doesn't it sound like my other dynamic headphones if they are all the same?


Does this mean that every manufacture uses the same implementation for their drivers or might a manufacturer that uses its own proprietary method of selecting materials and construction just by chance mean their can be noticeable differences between them. Would you agree this is a possibility?


Quote:


If ten or twenty people give eye witness and identify a suspect or a headphone trait  how much room for doubt then? Why does it need to be measured to be a fact just because YOU might not be able to detect the same occurrences does not mean it doesn't exist.

Quote:

I agree there are plenty of people spouting off all kinds of gobbledegook here just look at my own postings here :atsmile:

Quote:

Burn in can be dependent on the implementation and componentry used there are many types of the same component type, many will use differing materials and methods of construction. Just because burn in is not noticeable for one does not mean you can ASSUME that it is not noticeable on another.

Assuming still gets me into plenty of hot water with the wife!


Quote:


 A favourite quote of mine "There are lies, damn lies and then statistics"!  O2 users love statistics because they can then prove how wonderfully there amps measures. Its just a shame they don't sound so wonderful (imo of course)

Statistics are only meaningful if those doing the measuring know what they want to measure and how to measure it in the first case. The plain fact is this is also a very subjective area with differing methods used to obtain many readings.

Quote:

I welcome such opinions they can be very helpful when researching a new pair of headphones, I can choose to follow up with further research myself or just  leave them. At least it has brought to my attention a potential issue.


Why is evidence always needed many things are not black and white in this mixed up mad world we live in. 

There are billions of people on this earth that believe in many different religions none of them can be proved yet wars are still fought because religion A wants to ethnically cleans religon B from the face of the earth because it doesn't subscribe to its own skewed way of thinking.

I hope your not trying to convert us to your way (the only way) of thinking? There are not many sheep here ,you would be better off on the Schiit or 02 threads :evil: and the HD650 thread bb should be free from biased preaching.

No offence intended, we just seem to have different ways of looking at things.

Thank you for taking the time to refute this guy point by point! It desperately needed to be done.