Sennheiser HD 700 Impressions Thread
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:38 PM Post #3,361 of 9,326
I've always found the debate on amps particularly interesting. Truth be told, a big reason why I consider my Meier stack end game is because my current stance echoes that of the objectivist argument. My experience is based much more on speaker amps than headamps, though.
 
One of the most striking experiences I've had was when I spent time with a friend's rig. He owns one of the most popular concert venues in Atlanta and runs a high end audio dealership. He had a pair of Oasis monoblocks, which are about as high end as it gets (don't recall the amt, but I know they were over $20k each). The preamp he was using was another very high end piece, and off the top of my head I don't recall the brand. The key here was the speakers, though. He had the DeVore Fidelity Super 8s playing, which were the exact same speakers I had bought from him previously. I was running them with a pair of Outlaw Audio M200 Monoblocks...Outlaw is an internet direct company, and each monoblock was probably a little over two bills. I also had an Outlaw Audio 950 pre/pro and a Denon 2900 universal player as my source. All in all a pretty decent rig, but absolutely NOTHING compared to his. 
 
The point I'm getting at is that the DeVores, which were/are known as very transparent speakers, and also very nice speakers (around five dimes) didn't impress me much more on his rig than on my modest rig. When he switched out to the DeVore Silverbacks, and then more recently the NOLA baby grands (holy crap, what amazing speakers), there was a massive difference. But rig to rig, the Super8s didn't change much to my ears at all. 
 
Now with headphones, you remove one of the most significant factors - the room. So I can't say with 100% confidence that I still can't hear much difference from a modest SS amp to a top of the line SS amp, as I dont have the same amount of experience with headamps as I do speaker amps. But while I do believe that certain headphones such as the T1s or Audeze line sound fuller and more dynamic when I give them plenty of current (such as with the Meier amp), I don't know that I believe a properly designed $4000 SS headamp would offer anything beyond my $700 Meier Classic. 
 
Just my own personal experiences/thoughts. 
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:39 PM Post #3,362 of 9,326
   
I was assuming that everyone in this conversation was not referring to coloring the sound with an amp, but using a more powerful amp (that also does not color the sound) to get a better sound. And I was asking how this would work from a technical perspective.


OK, think about it like this. Say you have 2 O2 amps, one that has a 1x gain, and a 6.5x gain. Say you plug your HD700's into them (which we both know are pretty easy to drive). We all know the 6.5x gain has more juice (6.5x more, isn't maths great?). Set them both such that the output is more or less 1dB within each other. I can almost guarantee you that it'll be the same.
 
Using a more powerful amp only makes something sound better because it was underloaded to begin with. More power only overcomes that: other factors are in play if you're talking about a 'better' sound beyond an underpowered sound.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:43 PM Post #3,363 of 9,326
  You should try to have a little bit more experience with audio equipment then... because it's a hell of a lot more than just power output. Just like you can't call Bryston BHA-1 a transparent amp even though it outputs plenty of power and you can reach the same SPL level easily from what others do, but there's a different sound characteristic to the BHA-1.
 
Lyr has a different sound characteristic.
 
I'm getting Master 9 soon (already in process of getting it) and that should be a very transparent amp that's reviewed by people with far  more experience with audio equipment than any of us/you currently discussing this issue of how an amp changes the sound.
 
Don't forget input/output impedance, don't forget about how much power you'd get at any given impedance on headphones from amps, don't forget that cables sometimes act as resistors, there's a lot more to amps than meets the direct idea of what an amp is (A device that amplifies a signal)

 
If it's not just output power (which is implied at a certain impedance), what else is causing it?
 
Let's assume for simplicity's sake that all the amps have a low output impedance and are solid-state.
 
  OK, think about it like this. Say you have 2 O2 amps, one that has a 1x gain, and a 6.5x gain. Say you plug your HD700's into them (which we both know are pretty easy to drive). We all know the 6.5x gain has more juice (6.5x more, isn't maths great?). Set them both such that the output is more or less 1dB within each other. I can almost guarantee you that it'll be the same.
 
Using a more powerful amp only makes something sound better because it was underloaded to begin with. More power only overcomes that: other factors are in play if you're talking about a 'better' sound beyond an underpowered sound.

 
But if it's underloaded, it would not be able to reach the same SPL level in the first place. The context is that all amps are outputting the same amount of power into the headphones (with the more powerful amp's extra output power not being used) and are thus letting the headphones output sound at the same SPL level.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:45 PM Post #3,364 of 9,326
I'm done with this topic, sorry, I thought it wasn't useless... I was wrong >_<
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:52 PM Post #3,366 of 9,326
This is geared towards speaker amps but is also very relevant to your questions.  Also, don't forget the Fulla is an Amp/DAC.  The DAC add's a whole different wrinkle but separate from the AMP question.

 

1. Is Amplifier Weight an Indicator of Robust Amplifier Design?
You have to find out if the amplifier is a Class A/B analog amp or a Class D digital amplifier before you can generalize about weight and amplifier quality. The appearance of high-quality digital amplifiers such as the Axiom A1400-8 has changed the equation. Digital Class D amplifiers are much more efficient (90% or more) than analog Class A/B amplifiers (about 50% efficient). As such, digital amps tend to run much cooler and therefore do not require the heavy heat sinks associated with high-powered analog amplifiers, hence the overall weight of a digital amp may not be a reliable indicator of its intrinsic quality. For instance, Axiom’s eight-channel digital A1400-8 has received superb reviews. And while it’s not exactly light (58 lbs), it still weighs much less than its multi-channel analog competitors whose output power is often about 200 watts per channel, yet typically weigh from 90 to 125 pounds. Moreover, as an 8-channel power amp, the A1400-8 is much more compact than many analog rivals, one of the great advantages of high-quality digital designs.

For conventional analog Class A/B amplifiers, weight can be an indicator of good, robust designbecause it suggests that the amplifier’s important internal components--the power transformer, heat sinks, and storage capacitors -- are large, and therefore have plenty of capacity to process and store large amounts of power to handle loud dynamic peaks without distortion.

By contrast, an analog amplifier that weighs less may use a smaller transformer with inadequate capacity and fewer or thinner heat sinks (heat sinks look like radiator fins and are used to dissipate output transistor heat generated by high power output and big dynamic swings).

2. Do Solid-State (Transistor) Amplifiers Sound Different?
They may sound different if they are used at high volume levels as they approach the limits of their output ratings, when the amplifiers’ distortion is rising and nearing the clipping point. However, if two different transistor amplifiers have the same smooth, linear frequency response, low distortion, and are operated within their output ratings, then they will tend to sound identical until they are called upon to produce great quantities of clean, unclipped power. With one amplifier, there may be a quality of effortlessness to the sound quality on big dynamic peaks in sound level, whereas another amplifier may start to sound strained or harsh on dynamic peaks because it cannot handle peaks free of distortion. Using music as a “test” signal, such differences may only appear as a need to “turn down the volume” rather than your hearing gross audible distortion artifacts. Note, too, that peaks can be as much as 12 dB louder, which will demand 16 times as much power from the amplifier, causing many lower-powered amplifiers or receivers to go into clipping.

3. How Does an Amplifier “Amplify”?
Perhaps one of the easiest ways to understand how an analog audio amplifier works is to think of it as a kind of servo-controlled “valve” (the latter is what the Brits call vacuum tubes) that regulates stored up energy from the wall outlet and then releases it in measured amounts to your loudspeakers. The amount being discharged is synchronized to the rapid variations of the incoming audio signal.

In effect, an analog amplifier is comprised of two separate circuits, one of which, the output circuit, generates an entirely new and powerful electrical output signal (for your speakers) based on the incoming audio signal. The latter is an AC signal of perhaps 1 volt that represents the rapidly varying waveforms of sounds (both their frequencies and amplitudes). This weak AC signal is used to modulate a circuit that releases power (voltage and amperage) stored up by the big capacitors and transformer in the amplifier’s power supply, power that is discharged in a way that exactly parallels the tiny modulations of the incoming audio signal. This signal in the amplifier’s input stage applies a varying conductivity to the output circuit’s transistors, which release power from the amplifier’s power supply to move your loudspeaker’s cones and domes. It’s almost as though you were rapidly turning on a faucet (you turning the faucet is the audio signal), which releases all the stored up water pressure—the water tower or reservoir are the storage capacitors-- in a particular pattern, a kind of liquid code.

4. What Are the Different “Classes” of Amplifiers?
Class A designs have current constantly flowing through the output transistors even if there is no incoming audio signal, so the output transistors are always on. This type of amplifier has the lowest distortion of any but it’s extremely wasteful and inefficient, dissipating 80% of its power in heat with an efficiency of only 20%.

Class B amplifiers use output transistors that switch on and off, with one device amplifying the positive portion of the waveform, the other device the negative part. If there is no incoming audio signal, then no current flows through the output transistors. Consequently, Class B amplifiers are much more efficient (about 50% to 70%) than Class A designs, however there may be non-linear distortions that occur when one set of transistors switch off and the other set switches on.

Class A/B amplifiers combine the virtues of Class A and Class B designs by having one output device stay on a bit longer, while the other device takes over amplifying the other half of the audio waveform. In other words, there is a small current on at all times in the crossover portion of each output device, which eliminates the potential switching distortion of a pure Class B design. Efficiency of a Class A/B amp is still about 50%.

Class D amplifiers, although there are a number of different design variations, are essentially switching amplifiers or Pulse Width Modulator (PWM) designs. The incoming analog audio signal is used to modulate a very high frequency PWM carrier that works the output stage either fully on or off. This ultra-high frequency carrier must be removed from the audio output with a reconstruction filter so that no ultra-high frequency switching components remain to corrupt the audio signals. As previously mentioned, Class D designs are extremely efficient, typically in the range of 85% to 90% or more.

5. Do Amplifier Class Names Represent Performance Ratings? 
No. Nor do the Class letters signify anything. They are just a convenient way of differentiating types of amplifier circuits. For example, “D” does not stand for “Digital” in a Class D amplifier, although there seems to be some conflicting evidence on this. In any case, in discussions, the “D” seems to have taken root as signifying a so-called “digital” design.

6. What Are “Digital” Amplifiers and How Are They Different From Analog Amplifiers?
An analog amplifier works in analogous fashion, regulating the output stage devices (transistors) to release power from the amplifier’s power supply to the loudspeakers in a manner that exactly mimics the tiny incoming audio waveform. Digital amplifiers use high-frequency switching circuitry to modulate the output devices.

7. Why Do Some Audiophiles Insist on Tube Amplifiers?
Tube amplifiers distort in a different manner from transistor amplifiers, generating musically agreeable even-order harmonic distortion that may lend a sense of so-called “warmth” to sound quality (the “warmth” is still a distortion or coloration; it’s not present in the source signal) and it’s this characteristic that most tube aficionados prefer. While tube amplifiers are often not as smooth or linear in frequency response as transistor designs and have other liabilities as well, when pushed near or past their output limits, tubes tend to gracefully distort, without the harshness associated with transistor clipping. However, tube amplifiers are limited in output power due to the tubes and output transformers.

Solid-state amplifiers, when pushed past their output limits, “clip” the audio waveform producing potentially harsh-sounding odd-order distortion that can be quite grating or unpleasant to the ear. On the other hand, kept below their maximum rated output, transistor amplifiers are very neutral and smooth and have none of the complex impedance interactions that may affect tube devices.

8. What Are the Most Important Attributes of Any Amplifier?
One primary attribute is a ruler-flat smooth frequency response from the deepest audible bass signals at 20 Hz (or lower) to the highest frequencies we can hear, at 20,000 Hz. A smooth, linear frequency response means that the amplifier will treat every incoming audio signal, whether it’s a bass-drum signal at 30 Hz or a cymbal’s high-frequency harmonics at 10,000 Hz exactly the same way, increasing the electrical strength of each tiny signal by exactly the same amount. Low total harmonic distortion (THD), below 0.5%, is essential so that any distortion artifacts remain inaudible with music. Finally, generous power output from a robust power supply so that the amplifier can handle the huge range of soft-to-loud dynamics present in virtually every type of music and soundtrack. “Generous” could be defined as a minimum of 50 to 100 watts per channel or more. For realistic music reproduction, more power is always desirable.

9. What Are “ICE” Amplifiers?
The Ice Power division of Denmark’s Bang & Olufsen (B&O) holds patents on its “ICE” amplifier, which is basically a Class D switching design (Pulse Width Modulator) with variants that B&O claims reduce distortion to levels associated with Class A amps, while retaining the high efficiency of Class D switching designs. ICE amps use a very high switching frequency of 384 kHz, which B&O says is 20 times as high as the highest frequency the ear can detect. The ICE amps also use feedback control to minimize the effects of the PWM design. Axiom’s engineering division took a different approach in the A1400-8 amplifier design. Axiom worked with International Rectifier to develop new silicon output devices and drive the MOSFETs in the output stage in such a way as to produce a perfect Pulse Width Modulated square wave at the output before the reconstruction filter. This approach also simplified the feedback network which made the amplifier more robust in its operation without being subject to oscillations or instability. The A1400-8 also uses a very high clock frequency (450 kHz) to allow for excellent transient response and non-aliasing in the audio band. The massive power supply is able to accurately output very high current and voltage to the loudspeaker over extended time periods.

10. How Do Small, Low-Powered Amplifiers Put Speakers at Risk?
Initially, it seems contradictory—how could a low-powered amplifier burn out speakers, when amplifiers of 200 or 400 watts per channel would seem to put speakers at much greater risk? The reason is that a small amplifier of 10 or 20 watts per channel can easily be driven into distortion and “clipping” with even moderately loud playback and dynamic peaks in loudness. The clipping cuts off the waveform andturns the output signal into an almost pure constant DC signal, which can quickly cause the fine wires in the speaker’s voice coils to overheat and melt. A large amplifier outputs clean power to the speakers –distortion-free AC audio signals—that the speaker voice coils will accept on a momentary basis without damage.

 

Credit: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/10-things-about-audio-amplifiers

 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:53 PM Post #3,367 of 9,326
   
I have yet to receive an explanation for why it would sound different within the context...oh well.

 
 
When you go and listen to other headphone amplifiers for yourself instead of chit chatting about numbers and how numbers would make a sound better you will understand for yourself, right now an explanation won't help because you're too stuck in that "I don't believe in that audiophile BS and there's no reason to pay more for a better amp because there won't be a difference"
 
Anyway, I'm not comparing sound with numbers, I'm comparing sound with my ears, thank you.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:58 PM Post #3,368 of 9,326
  This is geared towards speaker amps but is also very relevant to your questions.  Also, don't forget the Fulla is an Amp/DAC.  The DAC add's a whole different wrinkle but separate from the AMP question.

 
Sorry, that didn't help me understand anything in the context of headphone amps.
 
  When you go and listen to other headphone amplifiers for yourself instead of chit chatting about numbers and how numbers would make a sound better you will understand for yourself, right now an explanation won't help because you're too stuck in that "I don't believe in that audiophile BS and there's no reason to pay more for a better amp because there won't be a difference"
 
Anyway, I'm not comparing sound with numbers, I'm comparing sound with my ears, thank you.

 
If you had no explanation, you could have just said so in the first place. I wouldn't have held it against you.
 
And even if I heard something and it sounded better, that would not give me an explanation for why it is so.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:59 PM Post #3,369 of 9,326
   
Sorry, that didn't help me understand anything in the context of headphone amps.
 
 
If you had no explanation, you could have just said so in the first place. I wouldn't have held it against you.
 
And even if I heard something and it sounded better, that would not give me an explanation for why it is so.

 
 
Seriously trolling now...
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 7:59 PM Post #3,370 of 9,326
 
But if it's underloaded, it would not be able to reach the same SPL level in the first place. The context is that all amps are outputting the same amount of power into the headphones (with the more powerful amp's extra output power not being used) and are thus letting the headphones output sound at the same SPL level.

 
Point is, power only matters if it's underloaded or not. Beyond that, there's other things to look at.
 
Look, you're an objectivist. Nothing wrong with that: I am myself too. But know that numbers never tell the whole story, which is why the only real thing you could do is to go out and try it for yourself. If there's no difference, fair enough: buy the cheapest one you like. If you feel there's a difference, there's your answer.
 
The only answer you could get are from the engineers themselves. This is a question only they could answer, not us. All we know is that they sound different. How differently they sound is another story.
   
 
Seriously trolling now...

 
Mate, just get off if you want to. You're not held against your will. I believe he's actually trying to wrap his head around this all, and your condescension isn't helping him get the point.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 8:00 PM Post #3,371 of 9,326
   
Sorry, that didn't help me understand anything in the context of headphone amps.
 
 
If you had no explanation, you could have just said so in the first place. I wouldn't have held it against you.
 
And even if I heard something and it sounded better, that would not give me an explanation for why it is so.

If it didn't help you understand headphone amps than you didn't read anything in the article.  Headphone amps are no different than speaker amps, heck many people will use regular amps to drive planers and other power hungry headphones. If your mind is made up, so be it but don't ask for help and turn away anyone who provides an explanation. 
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 8:01 PM Post #3,372 of 9,326
  Seriously trolling now...

 
No, I am not. I am seeking answers which you claimed to have, but did not provide. (Which is fine, since these are difficult issues.)
 
  Point is, power only matters if it's underloaded or not. Beyond that, there's other things to look at.
 
Look, you're an objectivist. Nothing wrong with that: I am myself too. But know that numbers never tell the whole story, which is why the only real thing you could do is to go out and try it for yourself. If there's no difference, fair enough: buy the cheapest one you like. If you feel there's a difference, there's your answer.
 
The only answer you could get are from the engineers themselves. This is a question only they could answer, not us. All we know is that they sound different. How differently they sound is another story.

 
I prefer to think of myself as an agnostic. As in, I do not claim to know, but I do prefer science over emotion.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 8:03 PM Post #3,373 of 9,326
 
I prefer to think of myself as an agnostic. As in, I do not claim to know, but I do prefer science over emotion.

Fair enough. Us forum members can only tell you so much: you'll have to do a LOT of digging and researching to realise that amps are a much more difficult beast to understand than most put out to be.
 
In the end of the day, though, remember this: music is boring without emotion. Of course, you can't discount the failures in technical specifications, but once you reach a threshold, focus more on emotion.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 8:04 PM Post #3,374 of 9,326
  If it didn't help you understand headphone amps than you didn't read anything in the article.  Headphone amps are no different than speaker amps, heck many people will use regular amps to drive planers and other power hungry headphones. If your mind is made up, so be it but don't ask for help and turn away anyone who provides an explanation. 

 
I meant it did not help me to understand anything I didn't already know. The only info I found relevant to the discussion basically just said that if it cannot handle dynamic peaks, a less powerful amp may not sound as good. ...But most people here already know that.
 
Apr 2, 2015 at 8:10 PM Post #3,375 of 9,326
   
I meant it did not help me to understand anything I didn't already know. The only info I found relevant to the discussion basically just said that if it cannot handle dynamic peaks, a less powerful amp may not sound as good. ...But most people here already know that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of this discussion. You've been on head-fi for 16 months with an average of 429 posts per month, 14.3 posts per day. If you STILL haven't found the answer to your questions by now, I highly doubt an impressions thread of HD700 is going to help you out on your mythical quest. There are much more appropriate threads and forum sections for you to ask these questions in.
 
People have suggested you try other DACs and amps, but you refuse to do so. Instead, you just want to sell the HD700 and get an EL-8, even though you claim HD700 is one of the best headphones you've heard, yet it has major flaws that you hate. You don't make any sense and it hurts my brain reading your posts.
 

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