[Music Alchemist]

  I've read about all the "flaws" of HD700 and I've never seen anyone complain about HD700 being veiled or having "disgustingly weak" bass. Even the HD700 haters agree that HD700 is very revealing and accurate, along with having good bass (for an open back headphone). I'm not going to accuse you of having bad hearing, but your opinion of the HD700 differs greatly (basically opposite) from the majority of HD700 owners or people who've auditioned them. Maybe it's your DAC/amp. Who knows...

 
Nope, it's definitely the headphone. If you've heard enough headphones (especially other Sennheisers), the very first thing that would be noticeable about the HD 700 is that despite its ability to reproduce many things very accurately (I'm not denying that it has excellent capabilities in some respects), it still sounds very muffled and dull sometimes in ways that are not true to the recording, or how music is supposed to sound, for that matter. Things are too rounded off, lacking presence, attack, and bite, pushed into the background, and so on. At these lesser moments, it feels like all the texture from the music has been stripped away, though at other times, there is superb detail retrieval. (It may depend on the frequency and how much energy is in the music.) It lacks impact too, but is at least half-decent. None of this is the recording's fault, I can assure you.
 
My $85 Sony MDR-7506 has a greater sense of overall clarity, though it has nasty treble peaks and so on, while the HD 700 only has mild peaks here and there. And I don't mean the Sony has a false sense of clarity due to the peaks; I mean despite the peaks, including in other frequencies where there aren't any nasty peaks. (But obviously, it's nowhere near the level of the HD 700 in certain areas.)
 
Look how closely the Focal Spirit Professional's measurements (represented in grey) follow the black line on this frequency chart, particularly in the bass:
 

 
That black line is the HRTF curve that emulates how flat-tuned speakers sound to human ears. (Ignore the labels on the top right of the graph. My friend didn't label them properly.) In other words, its bass is almost perfectly accurate. Yet, when there is strong bass in the recording, its bass is many times stronger than the HD 700's bass. That should tell you everything you need to know. (Fortunately, the weaker bass doesn't detract from the music too much.)
 
I am highly skeptical of high-end amps and DACs. It takes a certain amount of power for a headphone to reach a certain SPL (loudness) level. If you raise the power being used (via the amp's volume knob), you also raise the SPL level. A less powerful and more powerful amp will output the same amount of power into headphones at any given SPL level. Any extra power will not even be used at all unless the SPL level is increased. If there is a difference in sound, it is due to something other than output power.
 
Also note that @Focker noticed these flaws as well, and he has nicer gear than me.
 
The HD 700 is one of the best headphones I've heard, but its flaws are unacceptable for its cost.

 

[pietcux]

   
Nope, it's definitely the headphone. If you've heard enough headphones (especially other Sennheisers), the very first thing that would be noticeable about the HD 700 is that despite its ability to reproduce many things very accurately (I'm not denying that it has excellent capabilities in some respects), it still sounds very muffled and dull sometimes in ways that are not true to the recording, or how music is supposed to sound, for that matter. Things are too rounded off, lacking presence, attack, and bite, pushed into the background, and so on. At these lesser moments, it feels like all the texture from the music has been stripped away, though at other times, there is superb detail retrieval. (It may depend on the frequency and how much energy is in the music.) It lacks impact too, but is at least half-decent. None of this is the recording's fault, I can assure you.
 
My $85 Sony MDR-7506 has a greater sense of overall clarity, though it has nasty treble peaks and so on, while the HD 700 only has mild peaks here and there. And I don't mean the Sony has a false sense of clarity due to the peaks; I mean despite the peaks, including in other frequencies where there aren't any nasty peaks. (But obviously, it's nowhere near the level of the HD 700 in certain areas.)
 
Look how closely the Focal Spirit Professional's measurements (represented in grey) follow the black line on this frequency chart, particularly in the bass:
 

 
That black line is the HRTF curve that emulates how flat-tuned speakers sound to human ears. (Ignore the labels on the top right of the graph. My friend didn't label them properly.) In other words, its bass is almost perfectly accurate. Yet, when there is strong bass in the recording, its bass is many times stronger than the HD 700's bass. That should tell you everything you need to know. (Fortunately, the weaker bass doesn't detract from the music too much.)
 
I am highly skeptical of high-end amps and DACs. It takes a certain amount of power for a headphone to reach a certain SPL (loudness) level. If you raise the power being used (via the amp's volume knob), you also raise the SPL level. A less powerful and more powerful amp will output the same amount of power into headphones at any given SPL level. Any extra power will not even be used at all unless the SPL level is increased. If there is a difference in sound, it is due to something other than output power.
 
Also note that @Focker noticed these flaws as well, and he has nicer gear than me.
 
The HD 700 is one of the best headphones I've heard, but its flaws are unacceptable for its cost.

You might want to ask Jason or Mike from Schiit if the Fulla will do the Audeze EL8 justice, before you trade them in for your flawed HD700. You might end up with a flawed and disappointing EL8, just saying...

 

[Eee Pee]

All these impressions were made using a Fulla?

 

[Music Alchemist]

  You might want to ask Jason or Mike from Schiit if the Fulla will do the Audeze EL8 justice, before you trade them in for your flawed HD700. You might end up with a flawed and disappointing EL8, just saying...

 
Dude. The EL-8 is extremely easy to drive. (And the Fulla has more than enough power for it.) In fact, some people mentioned in the EL-8 thread that it sounded better from portable devices than from desktop setups, though I find that claim a little dubious. And I get plenty of volume with the HD 700 on the Fulla.
 

  All these impressions were made using a Fulla?

 
Yes. Read what I said about amps. At the same SPL level, any extra output power of more powerful amps is not even used. So if there is a difference in sound, it is not due to output power.
 
But bear in mind that @Focker agrees with me, and he has nicer gear.

 

[pietcux]

   
Dude. The EL-8 is extremely easy to drive. (And the Fulla has more than enough power for it.) In fact, some people mentioned in the EL-8 thread that it sounded better from portable devices than from desktop setups, though I find that claim a little dubious. And I get plenty of volume with the HD 700 on the Fulla.
 
 
Yes. Read what I said about amps. At the same SPL level, any extra output power of more powerful amps is not even used. So if there is a difference in sound, it is not due to output power.

I am not American. Is it polite in your country to call a stranger Dude? If so, keep on doing it, if not please don't repeat that too often. You can drive your headphones as you like, as long as you have your fun. I was just trying to help you on your crusade for the best sound.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I am not American. Is it polite in your country to call a stranger Dude? If so, keep on doing it, if not please don't repeat that too often. You can drive your headphones as you like, as long as you have your fun. I was just trying to help you on your crusade for the best sound.

 
Sorry if you were offended. It is also an expression of amazement, meaning "Wow."
 
And what help were you trying to provide?

 

[pietcux]

   
Sorry if you were offended. It is also an expression of amazement, meaning "Wow."
 
And what help were you trying to provide?

4 days ago, I thought that a Fiio E12 can drive the HD700 properly. Then I got my first real headphone amp, a Meier Audio OPERA from 2007. Now I know that A small amp can drive a HD700 better than an Ipod, but cannot do the HD700 justice in any regards. It is like a Smart and a Corvette. Both can do 90 mph, but....the Smart does the job, the Corvette blows you away. Buy yourself a proper amp / dac combo from Shiit and then move on with the headphone journey.

 

[malla1ml]

Well received my HD700's earlier today, they were a demo pair that I was lucky enough to pickup for an amazing price.  To give background on my equipment and other headphones, my favorite HP is the LCD2.1 and tied with the TH900.  I also own the LCD3, HE-500, Fidelio X2, AKG 7XX, Alpha Dogs, DT880, PM-3 and had a bunch of others I've since sold (side note, it's probably time to clear out stuff..).  While at work, I typically listen to my Sennheiser IE800's and have in the past used a ton of other IEMs.  My current desktop setup which I'm using to drive my HD700's is a Woo Audio WA7+WA7tp with upgraded tubes.  
 
My first impression is that the HD700 does have a slight veil, at least after listening to my IE800's all day at work using Tidal through a Meridian Explorer2.  The more I listen, it seems to go away, so it could very well be that brain burn-in needing to happen.  While I would say it doesn't have nearly the bass I typically look for in a HP, I love lush mids and deep hard hitting bass, these sound better than I was expecting in that regard.  I really like what I hear right now, but some songs seem to be more laid back, while others really come alive and shine.  Will I be keeping them? Absolutely, they have a good place in the rotation.
 
Edit:
After further listening, the veil I thought I was hearing had more to do with the song and less to do with the HD700. This is a great headphone but as others have said, it's very dependent on source.  

 

[Music Alchemist]

  4 days ago, I thought that a Fiio E12 can drive the HD700 properly. Then I got my first real headphone amp, a Meier Audio OPERA from 2007. Now I know that A small amp can drive a HD700 better than an Ipod, but cannot do the HD700 justice in any regards. It is like a Smart and a Corvette. Both can do 90 mph, but....the Smart does the job, the Corvette blows you away. Buy yourself a proper amp / dac combo from Shiit and then move on with the headphone journey.

 
I'm curious, how does an amp sound better when it's outputting the same amount of power into the headphones to reach a certain SPL level?

 

[XVampireX]

   
I'm curious, how does an amp sound better when it's outputting the same amount of power into the headphones to reach a certain SPL level?

 
It's not just about Power and Volume, try the difference between tube and transistors (very important difference for Sennheiser)
 
Like pietcux said, both the Smart and Corvette  can get you to 90 mph, but Corvette does it faster and better (Not talk about the size difference though cause for sure Smart will be a better idea in a city - just like a portable amp will be portable)
 
I've had the chance to listen to several different amps and I certainly hear the difference between amps, and let me tell you it's not a small difference.

 

[pietcux]

Q.: What is better than big cubic capacity?
A.: More cubic capacity!

 

[Music Alchemist]

  It's not just about Power and Volume, try the difference between tube and transistors (very important difference for Sennheiser)
 
Like pietcux said, both the Smart and Corvette  can get you to 90 mph, but Corvette does it faster and better (Not talk about the size difference though cause for sure Smart will be a better idea in a city - just like a portable amp will be portable)
 
I've had the chance to listen to several different amps and I certainly hear the difference between amps, and let me tell you it's not a small difference.

 
I will refine my question:
 
How do two solid-state amps with sufficient power to attain a certain SPL level (and without balanced topology that is designed to sound better than the single-ended section) sound different from each other?
 
(If we are talking about tubes coloring the sound, that is not even relevant to output power.)
 
My line of reasoning is based on such posts as this one:
 

  The fact is, if an amp has:
 
1) inaudibly low noise
2) inaudibly low distortion at the required power and current level
3) output impedance <1/10 of headphone impedance at all frequencies
4) sufficient voltage swing to drive the headphones to an acceptable level
5) inaudibly low channel imbalance
6) a flat frequency response
7) Little or no overshoot or ringing regardless of load
8) Decent phase response
 
the amp will sound just like every other amp that meets these criteria.
 
It isn't terribly hard to meet these criteria with modern electronics either, and any competently designed amp should succeed at this. As such, any competently designed amp with sufficient power and voltage swing (and this just means enough to get the headphones fairly loud) will drive the HD800 perfectly. Note that it only takes ~160mW at 8Vrms to get to 120dB with the HD800, so the limiting factor for nearly any amp out there is going to be voltage swing, not current capability (and even the amount of voltage required to get them ridiculously loud is well within the capability of most reasonable amps). The HD800 is actually a fairly easy load, from the amp's perspective - high impedance, low current, and not hugely insensitive. Something like an LCD2 is much more challenging to the amp than the HD800 ever could be.

 

[malla1ml]

   
I'm curious, how does an amp sound better when it's outputting the same amount of power into the headphones to reach a certain SPL level?

I'm not the best person for all the reasons why (there are many), but I just tried switching from my WA7+WA7tp to my Meridian Explorer2 and there is no comparison.  A better amp/dac has a tremendous difference on the sound quality and the explorer is no slouch but it just can't feed the HD700 like a solid desktop amp can.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Here are the power requirements for the HD 700: http://www.audiobot9000.com/sennheiser/h/hd-700
 
It does not need a whole lot of power. If someone claims an amp sounds better than another, I want a scientific explanation.
 
(I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, anyway.)

 

[XVampireX]

   
I will refine my question:
 
How do two solid-state amps with sufficient power to attain a certain SPL level (and without balanced topology that is designed to sound better than the single-ended section) sound different from each other?
 
(If we are talking about tubes coloring the sound, that is not even relevant to output power.)
 
My line of reasoning is based on such posts as this one:
 

 
 
1) Tubes don't change the sound just because they are different tubes.
 
2) How would it sound different? Well apparently you're only looking at power output in your audio quest and that's where you fail to realize that if you want to be objective, you need to look at other parameters too, such as SNR, DNR, THD, etc...
 
3) Power is not linear.